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Old 07-19-2014, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,931,850 times
Reputation: 28563

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OuttaTheLouBurbs View Post
I know. I'm primarily talking about rail based transit.

Also, this is off topic, but it makes me think-how expensive would it be to upkeep a canal-based transportation system? As in, cars replaced by boats, roads replaced by canals, like Venice but on a massive scale? Would that be cheaper than roads to maintain? It's pretty out there but I was just wondering.
It probably requires smarter city layouts. We have ferries but they are a little pricy and don't run often. We also have a few boats imported from Venice that loop the lake.

 
Old 07-19-2014, 05:03 PM
 
10,224 posts, read 19,250,930 times
Reputation: 10899
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I'm rather puzzled by these threads. And why people like responding to them so much. Ok, road are subsidized. My reaction: so what?
The more common argument seems to go "Roads are subsidized, so road users have no reason to complain about transit subsidies". Which makes no sense. The less common but even more off-base argument is "Roads are subsidized, therefore the government is subsidizing suburban growth at the expense of the city".
 
Old 07-19-2014, 09:28 PM
 
3,699 posts, read 5,011,899 times
Reputation: 2080
Quote:
Originally Posted by OuttaTheLouBurbs View Post
I know. I'm primarily talking about rail based transit.

Also, this is off topic, but it makes me think-how expensive would it be to upkeep a canal-based transportation system? As in, cars replaced by boats, roads replaced by canals, like Venice but on a massive scale? Would that be cheaper than roads to maintain? It's pretty out there but I was just wondering.
Flooding can be an issue and Venice did the canal thing to stop invasion rather than to help move people. Not to mention issues with freezing in cold weather. Chicago has an touristy water taxi that runs from downtown to the gold coast, china town or mag. mile but it is kinda touristy and does not run in winter.
 
Old 07-19-2014, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,931,850 times
Reputation: 28563
Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
The more common argument seems to go "Roads are subsidized, so road users have no reason to complain about transit subsidies". Which makes no sense. The less common but even more off-base argument is "Roads are subsidized, therefore the government is subsidizing suburban growth at the expense of the city".
Sprawl is definitely helped by using level of service as the primary metric to evaluate new development.

Level of service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In a nutshell development can be denied if it causes "traffic" or slows traffic. Even at the expense of safety for other road users.
 
Old 07-20-2014, 12:21 AM
 
Location: South Texas
4,248 posts, read 4,172,563 times
Reputation: 6051
Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
Thoose roads do more than just carry people. They also carry cargo. Heck CTA EL trains are delivered or taken away for scrap by road not rail.
Checkmate.
 
Old 07-20-2014, 12:28 AM
 
Location: South Texas
4,248 posts, read 4,172,563 times
Reputation: 6051
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
The fuel taxes are the revenue to support roads, the fares are the revenue to support mass transit.

Revenue from the fuel tax is shifted to support mass transit, how much of the revenue from mass transit has been shifted to support roads?

Let's not forget the fact that public transit agencies are exempted from paying fuel tax, thus, they don't contribute to the maintenance of the roads upon which they travel.
 
Old 07-20-2014, 09:40 AM
 
1,709 posts, read 2,172,545 times
Reputation: 1886
Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
Flooding can be an issue and Venice did the canal thing to stop invasion rather than to help move people. Not to mention issues with freezing in cold weather. Chicago has an touristy water taxi that runs from downtown to the gold coast, china town or mag. mile but it is kinda touristy and does not run in winter.
I know Venice didn't make their canal system with the initial goal of providing transport. But yeah, you have a point-flooding and freezing would probably be two big concerns. Maybe it could work on a city with little freezing though? Somewhere with a tropical-ish climate?
 
Old 07-20-2014, 09:48 AM
 
3,443 posts, read 4,467,612 times
Reputation: 3702
Quote:
Originally Posted by OuttaTheLouBurbs View Post
I know Venice didn't make their canal system with the initial goal of providing transport. But yeah, you have a point-flooding and freezing would probably be two big concerns. Maybe it could work on a city with little freezing though? Somewhere with a tropical-ish climate?
Flooding and freezing aren't the only issues.
Consider the drought map - United States Drought Monitor > Home
 
Old 07-20-2014, 10:50 AM
 
10,224 posts, read 19,250,930 times
Reputation: 10899
Quote:
Originally Posted by OuttaTheLouBurbs View Post
Also, this is off topic, but it makes me think-how expensive would it be to upkeep a canal-based transportation system? As in, cars replaced by boats, roads replaced by canals, like Venice but on a massive scale?
We had such a system on the eastern seaboard. Lots of canals. Some of them are gone, the rest are inoperative now, because first railroads and then roads proved to be much superior. They were incredible engineering feats dug mostly by hand (and despite that, probably faster than they could be built today), but they were also very, very slow.
 
Old 07-20-2014, 11:13 AM
 
2,092 posts, read 3,581,736 times
Reputation: 2407
Quote:
Originally Posted by chirack View Post
It matters because lack of parking is very limiting and annoying to neighbors and yes there is also private parking where there is extra demand for it. The street can only support so many cars. If the building lacks parking it greatly limits who would buy or rent it. It causes all sorts of issues and problems. I live in an house with an garage and I wouldn't have it any other way. Now not every person needs an space but if there were no parking, only a limited number of people would or could put up with it and would move elsewhere. And the government does support street parking by towing away abandoned vehicles(or ticketing them).
What makes you think there would be no parking without minimum parking restrictions? If people demand parking as much as you say they do, then that's an incentive for developers to provide parking or for residents to pay for parking.

The problem is that the government has no idea what the "right" amount of parking and so when they mandate it, they mandate too much and tons of land is wasted. That is why you have cities like Houston where there are hardly any walkable neighborhoods because it's so difficult to build compact, pedestrian-friendly developments because so much space has to be given over to parking.

In a world without minimum parking regulations of course there would still be parking, it would just be a more efficient amount of parking. Yes, sometimes in some areas street parking only might be more efficient than huge parking lots. You might find this "annoying" but why should the government subsidize your personal preference? I live in an area that is street parking only and I love it. I don't support the government mandating street parking only though because I don't believe that my personal preferences are objectively true.
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