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View Poll Results: should our cities be denser like Manila, Karachi and Mumbai?
Yes, this would be better than our sprawling us cities 25 37.31%
No, I don't want to live like a sardine 40 59.70%
I am not sure 2 2.99%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-13-2015, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
2,610 posts, read 3,763,081 times
Reputation: 1616

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To give real life proof that high density areas aren't necessarily more crowded.

These are the two districts that make up Downtown Toronto.

Toronto Centre
Average number of rooms per dwelling: 3.9
Average household size: 1.7
so 2.29 rooms per person

Trinity Spadina
Average number of rooms per dwelling: 4.1
Average household size: 1.9
2.16 rooms per person

Suburbs

Peel - the most populous of Toronto's suburban counties, and the most diverse
Average number of rooms per dwelling: 6.5
Average household size: 3.2
2.03 rooms person

York - the second most populous of Toronto's suburban counties, and one of the wealthiest
Average number of rooms per dwelling: 7.2
Average household size: 3.2
2.25 rooms per person

Durham - the third most populous of Toronto's suburban counties, and least expensive
Average number of rooms per dwelling: 7.1
Average household size: 2.8
2.54 rooms per person

Halton - the least populous (though still 0.5 million people) of Toronto's suburban counties, and one of the wealthiest
Average number of rooms per dwelling: 7.2
Average household size: 2.8
2.57 rooms per person

Suburban counties total
Weighted by population: 2.26 rooms per person
Weighted by households: 2.28 rooms per person

So really the suburbs and downtown are about the same.

The other "inner city" districts (in the geographic, not economic sense)

Beaches-East York: 2.35 rooms per person
Toronto-Danforth: 2.30 rooms per person
Davenport: 2.12 rooms per person
Parkdale-High Park: 2.33 rooms per person
St Paul's: 2.40 rooms per person
York South-Weston: 1.92 rooms per person
Eglinton-Lawrence: 2.32 rooms per person

So some are a bit below, others a bit above the suburban average, but overall, it's about the same.
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:36 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,989,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatsbyGatz View Post
High density cities would be fine as long as there is a healthy representation of higher-income and middle-income individuals living in those high-density living quarters. This might come off as politically incorrect, but I doubt that many people would complain about a high density city that was composed almost entirely of wealthy, educated, law-abiding residents. It is when we start seeing homeless folks, drug users, or "people who look shady" in the streets that our perception of a "good" city starts to turn negative, whether that be in a city with high or low density. Unfortunately, our biased perceptions (usually based on socio-economic classes) color our opinions of whether a city is "good" or "bad".
But is a high density area composed of poor people worse than a low density area full of poor people? Leafy suburbs tend not to be poor, but you can find counterexamples. I'm not sure why there's anything intrinsically worse about the poor parts of say, Washington Heights or West Bronx than poor lower density areas, say in Los Angeles or a ghetto rust belt city.
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:36 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,989,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
To give real life proof that high density areas aren't necessarily more crowded.

So some are a bit below, others a bit above the suburban average, but overall, it's about the same.
I wonder if that breaks down at "extreme" densities, say in Manhattan or Paris.
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
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Rooms per person in the outer city (mostly former inner suburbs that were merged into the city in the 90s)

Working class areas
Scarborough Rouge River: 1.69 (mostly 70s-90s vintage neighbourhoods)
York West: 1.73 (mostly 60s-70s vintage neighbourhoods)
Etobicoke North: 1.74 (mostly 60s-80s vintage neighbourhoods)
Scarborough Agincourt: 1.87 (mostly 70s-80s vintage neighbourhoods)
Scarborough Centre: 1.93 (mostly 50s-60s vintage neighbourhoods)
Scarborough Guildwood: 1.96 (mostly 50s-70s vintage neighbourhoods)
Scarborough Southwest: 2.08 (mostly 20s-50s vintage neighbourhoods)

Mixed (wide range in incomes)
Don Valley East: 2.04 (mostly 50s-60s vintage neighbourhoods)
York Centre: 2.04 (mostly 50s-60s vintage neighbourhoods)
Don Valley West: 2.24 (mostly 20s-60s vintage neighbourhoods)

Middle class to upper-middle class
Willowdale: 2.17 (mostly 40s-50s vintage neighbourhoods with a lot of new condos)
Etobicoke Centre: 2.42 (mostly 40s-50s vintage neighbourhoods, a few pre-WWII and 60s vintage areas)
Etobicoke Lakeshore: 2.45 (mostly 10s-40s vintage neighbourhoods with some new condos)

So the most crowded (or maybe rather least spacious, 3 people in 5 rooms is still not that crowded) areas are the outer parts of Toronto, mostly built in the 70s-80s. Some new neighbourhoods in the suburbs are also in the 1.5-1.8 rooms per person range.
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Old 01-13-2015, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
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When you are talking about super high density neighborhoods, you are talking about real difficulties in getting around or even finding a reasonable place to put your cars.

It just doesn't work that well in America.
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Old 01-13-2015, 06:55 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,989,613 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam View Post
When you are talking about super high density neighborhoods, you are talking about real difficulties in getting around or even finding a reasonable place to put your cars.

It just doesn't work that well in America.
Why would it make a difference whether it's in the US? Manhattan is not hard to get around in, it's hard to park in of course, but it nor any of the other few extreme density spots in the US don't work any differently than elsewhere. Most people just don't drive in them because it's impractical.

The even comment is weird, finding a reasonable place to put your car is more extreme than real difficulties in getting around.
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Old 01-13-2015, 08:27 PM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
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Yes we can do small sections scattered around in various US cities for those who do like that environment.
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Old 01-13-2015, 10:39 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,068 posts, read 16,090,068 times
Reputation: 12647
Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
To give real life proof that high density areas aren't necessarily more crowded.

These are the two districts that make up Downtown Toronto.

Toronto Centre
Average number of rooms per dwelling: 3.9
Average household size: 1.7
so 2.29 rooms per person

Trinity Spadina
Average number of rooms per dwelling: 4.1
Average household size: 1.9
2.16 rooms per person

Suburbs

Peel - the most populous of Toronto's suburban counties, and the most diverse
Average number of rooms per dwelling: 6.5
Average household size: 3.2
2.03 rooms person

York - the second most populous of Toronto's suburban counties, and one of the wealthiest
Average number of rooms per dwelling: 7.2
Average household size: 3.2
2.25 rooms per person

Durham - the third most populous of Toronto's suburban counties, and least expensive
Average number of rooms per dwelling: 7.1
Average household size: 2.8
2.54 rooms per person

Halton - the least populous (though still 0.5 million people) of Toronto's suburban counties, and one of the wealthiest
Average number of rooms per dwelling: 7.2
Average household size: 2.8
2.57 rooms per person

Suburban counties total
Weighted by population: 2.26 rooms per person
Weighted by households: 2.28 rooms per person

So really the suburbs and downtown are about the same.

The other "inner city" districts (in the geographic, not economic sense)

Beaches-East York: 2.35 rooms per person
Toronto-Danforth: 2.30 rooms per person
Davenport: 2.12 rooms per person
Parkdale-High Park: 2.33 rooms per person
St Paul's: 2.40 rooms per person
York South-Weston: 1.92 rooms per person
Eglinton-Lawrence: 2.32 rooms per person

So some are a bit below, others a bit above the suburban average, but overall, it's about the same.
What's that look like per square feet?

Typical apartment in San Francisco is going to be 600-700 square feet for a 2bd, out here it's more like 1,100. So they'd have roughly the same number of rooms. Maybe there's an extra bathroom, but I don't think bathrooms are counted as a "room." Overcrowding also just isn't about your dwelling. Ever been to Mission Dolores Park on a sunny day? Or if you try and rent the facilities in San Francisco squatters, you can't use them because of squatters.
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:07 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,990 posts, read 41,989,613 times
Reputation: 14810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Typical apartment in San Francisco is going to be 600-700 square feet for a 2bd, out here it's more like 1,100. So they'd have roughly the same number of rooms. Maybe there's an extra bathroom, but I don't think bathrooms are counted as a "room."
Going by questions on the NYC forum, 3 bedroom apartments with 2 bathrooms tend to much harder in NYC to find than elsewhere.
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Old 01-15-2015, 04:48 PM
chh
 
Location: West Michigan
418 posts, read 495,930 times
Reputation: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post

Kowloon Walled City was like a shelf with sardine cans stacked 10 tall and the sardines had the juices squeezed out of them to fit two dozen per can.
Kowloon was just crazy, it's probably a good thing it was demolished.
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