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Ah, now I stand corrected. But see my other post comparing Markham Ontario, Naperville (Chicago suburb), and Irvine (Los Angeles suburb) on Google Maps on the same scale. You can see that Markham is clearly denser than Naperville, but that Irvine is also denser than Naperville and that Irvine is at least as dense as Markham.
California also seems to have tract home development that is much denser than the rest of the US.
Yes, I agree with those other comments. Just not what was previously said about Edmonton.
so is this thread about why is Irvine denser than most US suburbs, or why Canadian suburbs are generally denser than US suburbs, even if it's a smaller metro area like Edmonton.
Well, I am just using Irvine as the archetypal example for a postwar, Coastal California suburb. I am trying to point out that California's postwar suburbs are closer in density to Canada's postwar suburbs than the rest of the U.S.'s postwar suburbs.
Plus, the type of immigrants here do not want to spend alot of time maintaining land.
This is true of California as well. There are boatloads of immigrants from China, Taiwan, and Korea. Chances are these immigrants have lived in apartments all their life, and the concept of having a backyard is totally foreign to them. So they love having tiny lots.
This is true of California as well. There are boatloads of immigrants from China, Taiwan, and Korea. Chances are these immigrants have lived in apartments all their life, and the concept of having a backyard is totally foreign to them. So they love having tiny lots.
I don't know about "love." I have several friends who are Taiwanese immigrants--one couple lives in Mission Viejo, another in Lake Forest, and the third up in Whittier. They all have gardens and love gardening. Then there is one couple who do live in an apartment in Irvine. I think it's more accurate to say that Asian immigrants are "more willing to accept" having tiny lots with no yard than the average American.
California: The ONLY US state in the lower 48 where gas is MORE expensive than it is in Toronto!
Nah i'm pretty sure there are some States/Cities outside Cali more expensive than in Toronto/Ontario. Toronto is probably one of the cheapest places to buy gas in Canada. The Canadian national avg is much higher than Toronto and A LOT higher than U.S average. It is even higher than California.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJester
"The U.S. has more sprawling suburbs than Canada."
"I agree, except in California."
I'm not so sure about that one at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJester
OK, time for some visual aids comparing three low-rise areas in 3 postwar, upscale, master-planned suburbs in North America at virtually the same scale. All three areas appear to be entirely built after 2000.
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If you are talking about a sprawly landscape, where you are just looking at a large area of SFH low rise development, than sure, even though CAD suburbia would probably sprawl more densely than your typical American, you certainly would probably find some examples of sprawl in the U.S that is as dense, or close to it as you have. Where CAD cities pull apart though is in suburban nodular highrise density. In no way should high-rise or even mid-rise density be removed, because they contribute to the overall density of burbs in Canada - particularly in Toronto.
If you want a real example of what i'm talking about in terms of highrise suburban nodular density in Toronto metro - go to Mississauga. It is a 'burb' city of Toronto - part of the Greater Toronto Area as Irvine is a city in Greater L.A.
Nah i'm pretty sure there are some States/Cities outside Cali more expensive than in Toronto/Ontario. Toronto is probably one of the cheapest places to buy gas in Canada. The Canadian national avg is much higher than Toronto and A LOT higher than U.S average. It is even higher than California.
If you are talking about a sprawly landscape, where you are just looking at a large area of SFH low rise development, than sure, even though CAD suburbia would probably sprawl more densely than your typical American, you certainly would probably find some examples of sprawl in the U.S that is as dense, or close to it as you have. Where CAD cities pull apart though is in suburban nodular highrise density. In no way should high-rise or even mid-rise density be removed, because they contribute to the overall density of burbs in Canada - particularly in Toronto.
If you want a real example of what i'm talking about in terms of highrise suburban nodular density in Toronto metro - go to Mississauga. It is a 'burb' city of Toronto - part of the Greater Toronto Area as Irvine is a city in Greater L.A.
Let's set the record straight for gas prices (all prices from GasBuddy unless otherwise noted):
1 gallon = 3.78541 liters, 1 USD=1.33 CAD
US average: 0.92 CAD/liter (from AAA)
Washington state's 3.20 USD/gallon = 1.12 CAD/liter
California's 3.57 USD/gallon = 1.25 CAD/liter
Hawaii's 3.602 USD/gallon=1.27 CAD/liter
San Francisco's 3.656 USD/gallon=1.285 CAD/liter
Alberta: 1.011 (cheapest in all Canada).
Ontario: 1.148
Quebec Province: 1.199 (Montreal: 1.220)
Newfoundland: 1.240
Northwest Territories: 1.314
British Columbia: 1.347
This means that only California and Hawaii exceed gas prices in Eastern Canada. Only British Columbia and the Northwest Territories exceed California's average gas price. Even NYC has significantly lower gas prices than California. From GasBuddy, it seems like California's average gas price is easily more expensive than Canada as a whole (even as the US average is even cheaper than that of the cheapest province, Alberta).
I am well aware of suburbs like Mississauga that have enormous skylines. I in fact visited a family friend this June who lived in a high rise in Downtown Mississauga and she told us they were building an 80 story condo nearby. Admittedly, Irvine does not have as many high rises, but it’s in a seismic zone.
There are U.S. suburbs with massive skylines, too. Check out Bellevue, Washington, or Arlington, Virginia. Both are affluent suburbs. They both have a much smaller population than Missississauga. And yes, Arlington’s high-rises are all clustered around subway stations, while Seattle’s light metro will extend to Downtown Bellevue by 2023. There are plenty of residential as well as office high rises in both Bellevue and Arlington.
Google "Rosslyn-Ballston" or "Crystal City" to see Arlington's skyline.
I am well aware of suburbs like Mississauga that have enormous skylines. I in fact visited a family friend this June who lived in a high rise in Downtown Mississauga and she told us they were building an 80 story condo nearby. Admittedly, Irvine does not have as many high rises, but it’s in a seismic zone.
There are U.S. suburbs with massive skylines, too. Check out Bellevue, Washington, or Arlington, Virginia. Both are affluent suburbs. They both have a much smaller population than Missississauga. And yes, Arlington’s high-rises are all clustered around subway stations, while Seattle’s light metro will extend to Downtown Bellevue by 2023. There are plenty of residential as well as office high rises in both Bellevue and Arlington.
Google "Rosslyn-Ballston" or "Crystal City" to see Arlington's skyline.
Mississauga is a strong example of suburban highrise density. It may be one of the strongest examples of that in Canada or the U.S. Don't mistaken that on my part for great urbanity. IMO Mississauga was off the mark in that they built their 'dt core' around a shopping mall. Good thing for Mississauga that there are some urban slices in Pt Credit and Streetville but most of the city is pretty suburban in nature. Next time your in Mississauga visiting family - check out the area around Erin Mills Town Centre - they are literally building a Canyon of mid rise condo's opposite that mall on Eglinton.
I know all too well about the U.S having some clusters of skylines outside DT cores - it just isn't as prevalent as in cities like Toronto, Vancouver and also Montreal. In terms of penetration, Canadian burbs are simply more dense and more vertical than their American cousins. There are outlier examples in the U.S - just not as prevalent or penetrative.
This isn't a bad thing. Some people simply like the space that sprawl provides. I do think the concept of sprawl and space is more ingrained in the general American psyche than in Canada.
I know all too well about the U.S having some clusters of skylines outside DT cores - it just isn't as prevalent as in cities like Toronto, Vancouver and also Montreal. In terms of penetration, Canadian burbs are simply more dense and more vertical than their American cousins. There are outlier examples in the U.S - just not as prevalent or penetrative.
Fine, high-rise suburban skylines like Bellevue, Washington or Arlington, Virginia are much less prevalent in the U.S. than they are in Canada, but Arlington, Virginia is an even better example of a dense, transit-oriented, high-rise suburb than Mississauga.
Arlington has several heavy rail lines passing through it, while Mississauga has yet to have even one. Not to mention that Arlington has a higher density, and that while Misssissauga's high rises are overwhelmingly residential, Arlington has both plenty of residential and office high rises. Sure, Mississauga's tallest high rises are much taller than Arlington's, but that's about it.
Fine, high-rise suburban skylines like Bellevue, Washington or Arlington, Virginia are much less prevalent in the U.S. than they are in Canada, but Arlington, Virginia is an even better example of a dense, transit-oriented, high-rise suburb than Mississauga.
Arlington has several heavy rail lines passing through it, while Mississauga has yet to have even one. Not to mention that Arlington has a higher density, and that while Misssissauga's high rises are overwhelmingly residential, Arlington has both plenty of residential and office high rises. Sure, Mississauga's tallest high rises are much taller than Arlington's, but that's about it.
Arlington Virginia is 26 sq miles while Mississauga is 112 sq miles. I don't think you can really compare a small parcel of a suburb, against a larger burb like Mississauga, which is more expansive and a larger city really. In Toronto metro, Arlington wouldn't even be its own city, it would be a collection of census tracts. Mississauga itself, is more populated than Washingon D.C. It is highly likely that if you took the most dense 26 sq miles of Mississauga, which is where all those highrises are clustered, it would be more dense than Arlington. Arlington is also a lot closer to the core of D.C. as well. It is only 5.2 miles away from D.C and thus closer to urbanity, whereas Mississauga is 16 miles away from the core of Toronto so is just more suburban. 5.2 miles from Toronto's core and you are still actually in the city of Toronto and not a burb. I don't see these as comparable examples tbh.
Last edited by fusion2; 08-26-2019 at 09:34 PM..
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