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Section 3.1.1 GENERAL CHARACTER
The Suburban Neighborhood Context is characterized by single-unit and multi-unit residential, commercial strips and centers, and office parks. Single-unit residential consists typically of Suburban House forms with street-facing garages. Multi-unit building forms are typically separated from single-unit residential and consist of clustered Garden Court, Town House, and occasional mid- and high-rise Apartment forms. Commercial buildings are typically separated from residential and consist of Shopfront and General forms. Single-unit residential uses are primarily located away from residential and commercial arterial streets. Multi-unit residential and commercial uses are primarily located along arterial and collector streets.
Section 3.1.2 STREET AND BLOCK PATTERNS
The Suburban Neighborhood Context consists of an irregular pattern of block shapes surrounded by curvilinear streets within a modified or non-existent grid, with cul-de-sacs and typically no alleys. Block shapes and sizes vary. The typical block pattern includes attached sidewalks (though sidewalks may be detached or non-existent), street and surface parking, and generous landscaping between the street and buildings.
Section 3.1.3 BUILDING PLACEMENT AND LOCATION
Single- unit residential buildings typically have consistent, deep front setbacks and varying side setbacks and building orientation. Multi-unit residential buildings typically have deep front setbacks and wide side setbacks. Commercial buildings may have varying orientation and typically have deep front and side setbacks to accommodate landscaping and parking.
Section 3.1.4 BUILDING HEIGHT
The Suburban Neighborhood Context is characterized by low scale buildings except for some mid- and high-rise multi-unit residential and commercial structures, particularly along arterial streets.
Section 3.1.5 MOBILITY
The Suburban Neighborhood Context has a higher reliance on the automobile with some access to pedestrian and bicycle facilities and the multi-modal transportation system.
Fairly accurate and comprehensive definition if you ask me. A solid definition of suburbs, at least in the Denver area.
Because they're all in the city! The residents of Uni Hills or Harvey Park would strenuously object to being called "suburbanites". Now the HP people might do more of their shopping over in Jefferson County simply b/c they're closer to the shopping areas of Jeffco than they are to similar areas in Denver. But all these kids go to city schools, the people use the city services such as parks and rec, etc. They live a fairly urban lifestyle, which, when you think about it, isn't much different from the urban lifestyle, e.g. "eat, work, sleep". My daughter lived in the University neighborhood for several years. It's near Uni Hills. It looked urban to me. You might note that Uni Hills is a fairly small area as well. Just sayin', it's not representative of the whole city. There is no reason that a "city" should not have single family houses as well as multi, no matter when they were built.
We don't all live in the northeast. Even Pittsburgh is a much less "urban" looking city (by these definitions) than say, Boston. To call a small town "urban" is a misrepresentation of the work, IMO.
So, suburbia begins at the edge of the city limits? Keep in mind, many of the neighborhoods on the edge of Denver were annexed after they were developed. Did they start out as suburban, then simply through the process of annexation, suddenly become urban?
Some are being rather obtuse about this. Municipal boundaries alone do not make a place urban or not. Urban and suburban describe the character of a neighborhood. That is almost certainly linked to land use, density and other factors.
dundalk md - Google Maps I'll add my example to the (so far) ineffective evidence. The google camera is straddling the city line. The row of homes is continuous. Because one side of the row is in the city does that make it urban? And because the other side is in an unincoporated area of a county, does that make it suburban?
The answer to both questions is no. Because municipal boundaries have nothing to do with it.
Agree and NEI also it is on the form not municipality; especially in the context of this discussion
Also like your link scroll around this image, part is Philly and Part is Montgomery County, this type of border goes on for quite a while and in all directions, as well as even more dense rowhomes for blocks and blockas on the border. So to Katiana, where is the line of demarcation?
Yeah I don't think most people here consider everything built after 1945 to be suburban, it just so happens that it's usually (but not always) the case.
Take North York Centre , a high density area along Yonge Street in Toronto. In the early 20th century, there was an interurban line running there, a few single family homes were built along it. The interurban line was dismantled, and in 1974 the subway was extended into the area.
The pre-1945 area would probably be considered suburban by most posters here. (admittedly many homes are newer, but the original ones are pre-1945) North York, Toronto, ON - Google Maps
Similarly, the neighbourhoods in downtown Toronto that were built where the railyards used to be would I think be considered urban by most here. The scale of the redevelopments there are very big, big enough not to be infill, but they are dense and pretty walkable.
This is the biggest redevelopment (Cityplace)
Even Mississauga Centre, which was farmland in the 60s (maybe even 70s?) is becoming quite urban. For now, I consider it semi-urban, since there are still a lot of buildings from the 70s-80s that I consider suburban like a shopping mall surrounded by parking lots, towers in the park and office parks. However, what is being built now is designed to be urban, and the plan is to build out the whole area in this way, turn the suburban arterials into boulevards and built light rail. Once that happens, I would consider it urban. Here's an example of the kind of buildings being built now.
Agreed. I had an epiphany today. On this forum, "suburban" simply means anything built after WW II according to the standards of the time, e.g. predominantly one story homes with attached garages, wider and/or curving streets instead of narrow streets on a grid, and the like. Even if it's in the city limits, if it looks like the above, it's "suburban" to many posters
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
More or less, yes, at least for me (excluding the one story homes; one story homes aren't the majority in the postwar suburbs I'm familiar with). City limits are rather irrelevant and misleading because they don't give information on what's inside them. At one time, I used to think of city vs suburb as going by city limits, until I learned more about places and realized they're rather disconnected by layout and form.
In any case, I think this thread discussion is almost exclusively on urban form and layout.
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Not to mention, here are things that have been said about the suburbs on this forum:
Sterile
Cookie-cutter houses
No sidewalks
No public transportation
No jobs, have to commute to the city
No commercial enterprises, have to drive to the city
Suburban Lifestyle
Boring
Vapid
No sense of community
No farmer's markets
Materialistic, "Keep up with the Joneses"
Selfish
Immoral
Even when we suburbanites disprove those things, the urbanistas come on and say, "I meant not enough public transportation", "the farmer's markets aren't as good as those in the city", blah, blah, blah ad infinitum.
Everyone who grew up there had a horrible childhood (to believe what you read on CD)
The neighborhood memph listed as most would consider urban did your criteria listed. And I explained it further detail later.
Quote:
Not to mention, here are things that have been said about the suburbs on this forum:
Sterile
Cookie-cutter houses
No sidewalks
No public transportation
No jobs, have to commute to the city
No commercial enterprises, have to drive to the city
Suburban Lifestyle
Boring
Vapid
No sense of community
No farmer's markets
Materialistic, "Keep up with the Joneses"
Selfish
Immoral
Even when we suburbanites disprove those things, the urbanistas come on and say, "I meant not enough public transportation", "the farmer's markets aren't as good as those in the city", blah, blah, blah ad infinitum.
Everyone who grew up there had a horrible childhood (to believe what you read on CD)
Some places have much better public transportation than others. People type fast, use hyperbole. If the suburbs where a poster is from don't have sidewalks, why would they say otherwise?
Anyway what does all the "defend suburbia" have to do with the thread? We were discussing what it takes from a place to feel "urban"? Must we go to "defend suburbia". There have been posters (not as often the anti-suburb posters, I'll admit) that have made hyperbolic comments about cities, too though I have no interest in listing them.
Anyhow, since I feel that was totally off-topic, and you complained elsewhere that people weren't that interested in discussing rural (I agree, but what would you expect in an urban planning forum) I'll add my own off-topic I think is much more interesting. Let us all look pretty photo rural places (all taken by ME! )
Now, let us all argue whether the 2nd photo is urban, suburban or rural.
OK, I have to go pull weeds in my SUBURBAN garden, but we need a new word for "single family homes built after 1945" than "suburban". That seems to be the defacto definiton on this board, and it is incorrect.
It's obviously going to vary (a single family built on a farm in 1950 is clearly not suburban, for example), but for what it's worth, I've never seen a neighborhood of post-war single family homes (in this home) that I don't consider to be suburban in form. That includes plenty of neighborhoods that fall within city limits. And University Hills definitely looked suburban to me from street view walks -- more "suburban" than I'd expected, really. Certainly far more stereotypically "suburban" than my current suburb. (which, I think, is why we can't say just use city limits to define a neighborhood when trying to discuss planning or form). It's also clearly not a modern subdivision-style suburb filled with McMansions and big box stores, but it does represent what I think of when I think of an average American suburban neighborhood. Whether or not it is officially within city limits is a moot point if discussing in terms of form.
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