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Actually, I make very valid points. 1.2 miles is very walkable. And who said that anyone who walks to the mall MUST make multiple purchases? Ever heard of window-shopping? I would imagine if a person's intention was to make the mall a day-trip, they would drive or catch a bus. I'm referring to those who are staying at NH or made the core of NH their primary visit.
The majority of the customers going there aren't walking a mile. That's my point. If you think people are walking 1.2 miles, then maybe we will have to agree to disagree. Also if you are going to an outlet mall, you probably aren't going window-shopping. An outlet mall is meant to get bargains. Most of those stores are not aesthetically pleasing (although Tanger Outlets generally have a better rep than most other outlet malls), they are meant for consumers to save money on name brand products. The majority of the people who go there will spend big money in an effort to save money from places they usually frequent.
And to your last point, again you are changing the topic. We are talking about people who are staying at the hotels. If they are staying at the hotels, then driving may not be an option. Catching a shuttle yes, but if they want to shop a lot, they are not going to want to walk that far. There will be many people who come from long distances to stay here and giving how crazy parking is at the NH, people will want to keep their cars parked rather than dealing with the hassle of driving.
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There are plans to fill that empty space with more mixed-use, office, or residential development.
This is news to me. You got some links? Again we are talking about the land between the National Harbor and the mall, not the National Harbor itself.
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Really? I've been hearing the opposite. The residents of Ft. Washington must love empty homes and businesses in their neighborhood huh? The more the better right? What municipality doesn't want people to live in their town or city? "Ft. Washington. A nice place to live. For US. So stay out! We don't want your stinkin' traffic." Great Slogan. Enjoy your empty houses and lack of services.
I'm not the poster boy for Fort Washington Residents, I'm just telling you what they have been saying at meetings and in the newspaper. Take it for what it is.
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That's the point. NH is built to be a dense urban core. I think you're getting hung up on the current size of NH. NH doesn't have to be the size of Tysons or Crystal City to be considered an urban core in relation to mixed-use developments. "Urban - An urban area is characterized by higher population density and vast human features in comparison to areas surrounding it." I suggest you read up on Mixed-Use and TOD developments.
You still don't get it, do you? None of those places have single family home neighborhoods in the middle of them. My point is that it is impossible to make that area dense because of the existing structure. There isn't enough land to build it up that much, which is the reason why so many people don't like the location. There isn't enough land to expand.
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On the contrary, there is a comparison. NH has a grid of walkable streets, high density housing, shopping, and jobs. Remember, a development can be dense mixed-use and not be near major hubs of public transportation. Think Tysons Corner, Reston Town Center, and all along the Dullus Toll Road - huge mixed-use developments without major public transit hubs. Developments near public transit hubs are called Transit Oriented Developments or TODs. NH is not a TOD obviously, but it can still be a dense mixed-use urban development without transportation. And there's nothing preventing the purple line or the Yellow Line from being extended to NH in the future.
You suggested in your previous post that there could be public transportation there, I only was responding to that point and I was in no way suggesting that public transportation was necessary to build an urban area. My point was there isn't enough land to build such things to make it urban.
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lastly, and in the case of this topic, most importantly, the casino would further add to the density of NH and also provide more patrons for the outlet mall to either walk to or catch a shuttle to. Whichever they prefer. And I'm sure the two would strike up agreements such as offering coupons and shopping sprees, etc. to foster business between the two.
But again the casino, wouldn't add anything to neighborhoods on Oxon Hill Road. The only thing it would do is add traffic. It is still not going to be walkable for residents in that area and there isn't much that can be added to that area to improve their quality of life. The only way the National Harbor would benefit those neighborhoods is if they incorporated those neighborhoods within the National Harbor, by removing the fences, creating new roads and new walking paths. Unfortunately there are too many residents who do not want to give up their private property to do so, so you idea of this area becoming dense, or urban, again is nearly impossible.
And by the way just to explain this, since many are becoming confused. Those little grid areas on the map south of the proposed mall site, are single family homes. As you can see, there is nothing but single family homes south of the site. Also, south east of the site, there are pre-existing condominiums that have been there since 1966. To the west of the site, there is a road way that surround an area known as the Plateau, which is where the National Harbor host outdoor concerts. And of course to the east there is Indian Head Highway and on the other side of the highway is where the new Wal mart will be built. Again this shows you that the land that surrounds this site is completely occupied and nearly impossible to expand outside of building an outlet mall, some hotels and a few restaurants.
Exactly what I thought. That's why I asked for the map. Yeah, no one is going wants to walk 1.2 mile from the hotel to the mall but it is walkable none less. All that is there is a bunch of empty lots used for activities, I think you and adelphi_sky both make interesting points. However adelphi, the concepts you mention doesn't work with the NH but I don't disagree with what your saying.
The only space I see available within the Harbor itself is the area adjacent to the intersection of Oxon Hill and Kerby Hill Road which is fenced in.
Traffic should the least of concern on Oxon Hill Road. There's no reason for people to use the residential section of Oxon Hill Road to get to the mall and/or the Harbor unless they live in that corridor. Taking 210 to Oxon Hill Road is the most logical route to and from the Harbor. If there's a traffic jam on Oxon Hill Road, you can blame no one but the drivers themselves. It's not for thru traffic.
I couldn't care either way how they handle it but the real problem is the Kerby Hill/Livingston Road and Old Fort Road intersections. Just get rid of those two signals or synchronize them and get rid of the Wilson Bridge Dr the traffic flow better. It doesn't help that drivers coming from 295 jump immediately in the far left lane of 210 rather than staying in the lane that ends up being added. All of the lanes are congested, they aren't going anywhere.
Traffic should the least of concern on Oxon Hill Road. There's no reason for people to use the residential section of Oxon Hill Road to get to the mall and/or the Harbor unless they live in that corridor. Taking 210 to Oxon Hill Road is the most logical route to and from the Harbor. If there's a traffic jam on Oxon Hill Road, you can blame no one but the drivers themselves. It's not for thru traffic.
That's very true, but traffic becomes an issue during rush hour. Having a mall there will make it worse unfortunately. That is the consequence that those residents must take for living on a main road. Although I think they have a legitimate gripe, part of the issue is their own fault for choosing to live there.
I couldn't care either way how they handle it but the real problem is the Kerby Hill/Livingston Road and Old Fort Road intersections. Just get rid of those two signals or synchronize them and get rid of the Wilson Bridge Dr the traffic flow better. It doesn't help that drivers coming from 295 jump immediately in the far left lane of 210 rather than staying in the lane that ends up being added. All of the lanes are congested, they aren't going anywhere.
Unfortunately getting rid of the Wilson Bridge Drive light wouldn't work because you have a condominium complex there. How would those residents be able to leave in and out? They have been proposing some improvements to the roads, including making Kerby Hill Road an overpass, but nothing has been done.
That's very true, but traffic becomes an issue during rush hour. Having a mall there will make it worse unfortunately. That is the consequence that those residents must take for living on a main road. Although I think they have a legitimate gripe, part of the issueis their own fault for choosing to live there...............
Maybe. It depends on when they bought and whether the plans changed. When Mrs. NBP and I bought our house the street dead-ended on a 30 acre steep slope and unbuildable due to zoning parcel. That parcel was annexed into the Town and all of a sudden a different part of the Critical Areas law came into play and a 135 unit high end townhouse development went in without any improvement of the street or any access other than right by our house. The Town Council had the option of finishing an unimproved street for another access. They chose to put in a sidewalk elsewhere.
The above got me back into elective office after having said never again. The then Council admitted to not even reading the development agreement prior to approving it. The development also was originally accepted as a 55+ community. It was bait and switched after construction began.
That's very true, but traffic becomes an issue during rush hour. Having a mall there will make it worse unfortunately. That is the consequence that those residents must take for living on a main road. Although I think they have a legitimate gripe, part of the issue is their own fault for choosing to live there.
Unfortunately getting rid of the Wilson Bridge Drive light wouldn't work because you have a condominium complex there. How would those residents be able to leave in and out? They have been proposing some improvements to the roads, including making Kerby Hill Road an overpass, but nothing has been done.
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The signal at the Wilson Bridge Drive intersection would be removed and the median closed restricting that location to right turning vehicles only. A new connection would be provided from the Wilson Bridge Drive communities to Kerby Hill Road to allow additional access to MD 210 using the proposed interchange
They can still leave but they can no longer go northbound towards the Beltway. They would have to go to Kerby Hill Road on a new connection and then get on 210.
The project is currently under study.
As for the Oxon Hill Road, most of the traffic is people trying to avoid 210 unaware of the fact that they aren't much better off.
[quote=pgtitans;23489266]I agree that is walkable, but not for the majority of their customers that stay at the hotel. If they wanted people to walk from their hotel to the mall, they would have put it on the site. For that purpose they will likely just have shuttles, which again doesn't necessarily make it walkable. The average shopper, especially if they plan on doing shopping, will not benefit from walking that long of a way.
The second part of your statement is wrong. I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that this mall is being built at the Harbor. It is not being built at the Harbor, it is being built on the historic Salubria site, which is why it has been so difficult for it to get this far. The land in where the mall will be located is at the corner of Oxon Hill Road and Harborview Avenue. It is going to be directly across the street from that huge high rise office building and the park and ride parking lot.
I know where its going to be located and that has always been a part of the National Harbor (see map: National Harbor Interactive Map System). The area on the original map provided by Peterson Cos (above) cited it as Rivercrest not Riverview so that was an error on my part. This area is technically called the "Sulurbia Center" but it has been included as a part of the National Harbor development since they broke ground but it is only now that it is being developed. Regardless, it is a part of the original 300 acres and is considered a part of the National Harbor. That is why the official name of the outlet center will be "Tanger Outlets at the National Harbor" not " Tanger Outlets by the National Harbor".
Last edited by UrbanScholar; 03-20-2012 at 05:13 PM..
And by the way just to explain this, since many are becoming confused. Those little grid areas on the map south of the proposed mall site, are single family homes. As you can see, there is nothing but single family homes south of the site. Also, south east of the site, there are pre-existing condominiums that have been there since 1966. To the west of the site, there is a road way that surround an area known as the Plateau, which is where the National Harbor host outdoor concerts. And of course to the east there is Indian Head Highway and on the other side of the highway is where the new Wal mart will be built. Again this shows you that the land that surrounds this site is completely occupied and nearly impossible to expand outside of building an outlet mall, some hotels and a few restaurants.
From the current development plan for the area (2006), they are not planning to expand to the south (towards Fort Foote). They plan to expand going in the direction of Riverview Commons. The plan will be to overhaul that area after they get some type of public transportation (a BRT or LRT). Once that is in place, Peterson (who owns most of the property in that area) will tear the existing buildings/retail down and rebuild (think downtown Silver Spring or U Street). Transportation centers are planned to be located in downtown Oxon Hill (near the library); National Harbor; and near FW Hospital. Although I don't see that happening for a while, the end goal will be to make it a walkable area.
Last edited by UrbanScholar; 03-20-2012 at 05:24 PM..
Unfortunately getting rid of the Wilson Bridge Drive light wouldn't work because you have a condominium complex there. How would those residents be able to leave in and out? They have been proposing some improvements to the roads, including making Kerby Hill Road an overpass, but nothing has been done.[/quote]
TCOLOR="Navy"]That's what they plan to do though. Anyone stay there would have full access to 210 at Kerby Hill Rd[/color]
From the current development plan for the area (2006), they are not planning to expand to the south (towards Fort Foote). They plan to expand going in the direction of Riverview Commons. The plan will be to overhaul that area after they get some type of public transportation (a BRT or LRT). Once that is in place, Peterson (who owns most of the property in that area) will tear the existing buildings/retail down and rebuild (think downtown Silver Spring or U Street). Transportation centers are planned to be located in downtown Oxon Hill (near the library); National Harbor; and near FW Hospital. Although I don't see that happening for a while, the end goal will be to make it a walkable area.
That sounds really great but I wouldn't hold my breath on that. I mean there are a lot of things that would have to change a lot!!!! I mean for starters, the mall would be isolated from the rest of that area regardless. And even the downtown part would remain isolated from the National Harbor and it would basically be three separate parts instead of a continual downtown like most urban areas have. Then there is a high school (which is being re-built as we speak), an elementary school, a post office and a church that occupy that area. Even if you brought up all the retail in that area, they would have to have some plan to implement all of those into that structure. An elementary school and a church on a main corridor of an area like that doesn't scream urban. Not only that they would have to do massive, MASSIVE work to some of the existing shopping centers. Those shopping centers at the corner of Livingston Road and Oxon Hill Road are atrocious and would have to be tore down completely in order to have any resemblance of an attractive downtown area. To me that sounds like a lot. That sounds like something that wouldn't happen for decades. Do you not agree?
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