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The math issue is not unique to Montgomery County, this is a national issue, so it is very believable to me. Kids do not understand fundamental math and it hurts them in the long run. I have tutored for years in 3 different states and there are certain things that kids simply don't know. I am talking about kids who are poor, middle class, black, white, whatever. It would shock you how many high school kids don't know their multiplication table. If you can't multiply you can't divide. If you can't do either, you can't do Algebra, and if you can't do Algebra, then you can't do Calculus. All it takes is one bad year to ruin these kids understanding of math. We as a nation are ignoring a huge issue.
As far as the schools, it's true but as a county there are things they can do to help. It appears that they are inviting a lot of poor, ESL type families but when you do, you have to foot the bill for services for them. It's vicious cycle because resources are pulled from other places in the county to make it happen. Montgomery County schools have become victim to their liberal government. It is expensive to provide what they are trying to provide in the name of diversity. I am not saying they should not help the poor, but I see a bigger issue with helping illegal immigrants who need a ton of services but there isn't enough money/resources to account for them.
So MCPS were great when they were filled with mostly white students. Black and Hispanic students start flooding the school system, scholastic achievement takes a sharp decline and we need to find out whats wrong with the school sytem? It seems pretty self explanatory what the problem is. This is more a cultural phenomenon than having anything to do with an issue with the school system. You could move White and Asian students to PG county schools and there would still be a substantial achievement gap between them and black/Hispanic students, and Im pretty certain this is already the case. Whites and Asians outperform Blacks/Hispanics scholastically basically everywhere in the country. At some point I think you stop looking for problems with the schools and just acknowlege that White and Asian students are generally flat out better at scholastic achievement than black and Hispanic students, most likely due to cultural reasons that people within the school system have basically no control over.
This is an outdated "Fox News" talking point that was never true and long since disproven:
Your link addresses newer African and Black Caribbean immigrants outperforming US Black students so it doesn't really prove what you claim.
If lagging achievement is not cultural what is your answer for it? Especially in a majority Black school system with the School Board, County Executive and County Council being majority Black the last couple decades.
Your link addresses newer African and Black Caribbean immigrants outperforming US Black students so it doesn't really prove what you claim.
If lagging achievement is not cultural what is your answer for it? Especially in a majority Black school system with the School Board, County Executive and County Council being majority Black the last couple decades.
Tread carefully.
I don't think I need to tread carefully. Did you read the post I responded to? That individual is under the assumption that you can take "blacks" from anywhere and place them in a school system and that school system will lag behind. That slippery slope fallacy is absolute bunk. "Blacks" are 14% of the United States population at best and are not evenly distributed across space. Any school system that is 90% black is a result of a legacy of societal dysfunction. Prince George's County is a majority black because while certainly "blacks" want to live around one another , no "black" is plunking down hundreds of thousands of dollars on a mortgage because they absolutely have to see another black face when they wake up in the morning. The FHA prior to the 1960s stipulated that anyone of any race could qualify for a loan (albeit much fewer for blacks) as long as that loan was not used to integrate a neighborhood. As a result, white suburban DC extended out of NW DC where whites already lived and black suburban DC extended outward into PG County from SE DC where blacks already lived. Certainly this policy has not been in place for 50 years which is why black families have moved en masse into Montgomery County (the geographic basis of this forum). I'll let you discuss why whites, in turn, haven't moved en masse to PG County and only fled from it.
Why don't African and Caribbean academic achievement skew and bolster aggregate African American levels? First and foremost, the immigrant subset is only 14% of the whole in its own right. Secondly (speaking as the child of an immigrant who came to the U.S. in the 1960s), let's face the raw fact that anyone coming from another country over the span of American history will look at a "black" school and recognize that it is a product of American racial dysfunction. Quite frankly, only native-born African Americans will send their kids to classically "black" schools post-Civil Rights Movement.
Wise and Flowers should not be low performing schools. Nor should they have two of the highest enrollments in the state when Montgomery County has more students. But go to the higher income black suburbs of both DC and Atlanta (black middle class "meccas") and see a "new" school and you will see a student body in which half of the students are coming from far and wide to go to the new good school. I cannot fathom how Wise could have 1/3 of its student body on free/reduced lunch and Flowers have 40%! If Wise and Flowers were smaller schools and the zones weren't ridiculously gerrymandered I would expect to see marked academic improvement.
The high achievement black immigrant students are a hidden minority. While, yes, many black immigrants do live within close proximity to African Americans and many have children who assimilate to African-American "norms", many others additionally move to predominantly white areas with decidedly better schools. There are black kids in my children's football program. There are generally one or two on each age level and they are all children of African or Caribbean immigrants. Now you go "across town" and there are a bounty of black players and teams and they are the overwhelming majority in those programs. This is reflected in the schools and trust me, there is no middle ground. It is not exactly a secret that black immigrants and native-born African Americans do not see eye to eye on what is a tolerable educational environment for children. I have said it before and I will say it again: PG County exists due to the consolidation of political power based on being a rare opportunity of blacks to be the numerical majority in one political unit. This power is not based on any economic or educational primacy. As a result, the schools suffer.
However, you can go all throughout metropolitan DC in MoCo, Fairfax, Arlington, etc. and see high achieving black students. And not just the children of immigrants but native born African Americans as well. In large numbers. But you are not going to see these kids in low performing MoCo schools, in PG County, or in Baltimore City because no parent of any race who wants their children to succeed academically is going to send their child to one of these schools just to be part of some social experiment. This is my opinion but I think the subsidies to these "black" schools are to keep them just suitable enough to make sure their parents continue to enroll them there and don't seek out other avenues in less segregated districts.
Last edited by Steelers10; 04-18-2014 at 02:40 PM..
Reason: "weren't" not "were"!
I don't think I need to tread carefully. Did you read the post I responded to? That individual is under the assumption that you can take "blacks" from anywhere and place them in a school system and that school system will lag behind. That slippery slope fallacy is absolute bunk. "Blacks" are 14% of the United States population at best and are not evenly distributed across space. Any school system that is 90% black is a result of a legacy of societal dysfunction. Prince George's County is a majority black because while certainly "blacks" want to live around one another , no "black" is plunking down hundreds of thousands of dollars on a mortgage because they absolutely have to see another black face when they wake up in the morning. The FHA prior to the 1960s stipulated that anyone of any race could qualify for a loan (albeit much fewer for blacks) as long as that loan was not used to integrate a neighborhood. As a result, white suburban DC extended out of NW DC where whites already lived and black suburban DC extended outward into PG County from SE DC where blacks already lived. Certainly this policy has not been in place for 50 years which is why black families have moved en masse into Montgomery County (the geographic basis of this forum). I'll let you discuss why whites, in turn, haven't moved en masse to PG County and only fled from it.
Why don't African and Caribbean academic achievement skew and bolster aggregate African American levels? First and foremost, the immigrant subset is only 14% of the whole in its own right. Secondly (speaking as the child of an immigrant who came to the U.S. in the 1960s), let's face the raw fact that anyone coming from another country over the span of American history will look at a "black" school and recognize that it is a product of American racial dysfunction. Quite frankly, only native-born African Americans will send their kids to classically "black" schools post-Civil Rights Movement.
Wise and Flowers should not be low performing schools. Nor should they have two of the highest enrollments in the state when Montgomery County has more students. But go to the higher income black suburbs of both DC and Atlanta (black middle class "meccas") and see a "new" school and you will see a student body in which half of the students are coming from far and wide to go to the new good school. I cannot fathom how Wise could have 1/3 of its student body on free/reduced lunch and Flowers have 40%! If Wise and Flowers were smaller schools and the zones weren't ridiculously gerrymandered I would expect to see marked academic improvement.
The high achievement black immigrant students are a hidden minority. While, yes, many black immigrants do live within close proximity to African Americans and many have children who assimilate to African-American "norms", many others additionally move to predominantly white areas with decidedly better schools. There are black kids in my children's football program. There are generally one or two on each age level and they are all children of African or Caribbean immigrants. Now you go "across town" and there are a bounty of black players and teams and they are the overwhelming majority in those programs. This is reflected in the schools and trust me, there is no middle ground. It is not exactly a secret that black immigrants and native-born African Americans do not see eye to eye on what is a tolerable educational environment for children. I have said it before and I will say it again: PG County exists due to the consolidation of political power based on being a rare opportunity of blacks to be the numerical majority in one political unit. This power is not based on any economic or educational primacy. As a result, the schools suffer.
However, you can go all throughout metropolitan DC in MoCo, Fairfax, Arlington, etc. and see high achieving black students. And not just the children of immigrants but native born African Americans as well. In large numbers. But you are not going to see these kids in low performing MoCo schools, in PG County, or in Baltimore City because no parent of any race who wants their children to succeed academically is going to send their child to one of these schools just to be part of some social experiment. This is my opinion but I think the subsidies to these "black" schools are to keep them just suitable enough to make sure their parents continue to enroll them there and don't seek out other avenues in less segregated districts.
Each and everyone of the jurisdictions mention have significant achievement gaps between Black & White students. Sure I guess they may do better than Black students in PG but what does that mean? What's your argument?
The reality is that Black middle class kids on average do no better than poor White kids. That's a national trend. There is no escaping that.
Each and everyone of the jurisdictions mention have significant achievement gaps between Black & White students. Sure I guess they may do better than Black students in PG but what does that mean? What's your argument?
The reality is that Black middle class kids on average do no better than poor White kids. That's a national trend. There is no escaping that.
That is only the reality if you are looking at aggregate numbers. I have provided evidence that if you disaggregate numbers (which are the only one's that make sense as per what do black middle class African immigrant kids in Arlington have to do with black middle class African American kids in Gaithersburg outside of the quality of being black?) then you are looking at a very different glimpse of education. A glimpse that does not fit your narrative. I'll still assert that middle class African (and Caribbean) immigrant children are outperforming their counterparts of any race or ethnicity until I see disaggregated data showing otherwise.
That is only the reality if you are looking at aggregate numbers. I have provided evidence that if you disaggregate numbers (which are the only one's that make sense as per what do black middle class African immigrant kids in Arlington have to do with black middle class African American kids in Gaithersburg outside of the quality of being black?) then you are looking at a very different glimpse of education. A glimpse that does not fit your narrative. I'll still assert that middle class African (and Caribbean) immigrant children are outperforming their counterparts of any race or ethnicity until I see disaggregated data showing otherwise.
So now African-Americans are clinging to the performances of Black immigrants and their kids as salvation. This is becoming sad. As a child of Ghanaian immigrants I'm well aware of the performance of Black immigrants. Thanks.
So now African-Americans are clinging to the performances of Black immigrants and their kids as salvation. This is becoming sad. As a child of Ghanaian immigrants I'm well aware of the performance of Black immigrants. Thanks.
"Salvation" is not my word, it is yours. Speaking of which, for at least the past decade or so with their "Right to Abode" Act it is actually Ghana that looks to African-Americans for "salvation" not the other way around:
"The educational attainment of many African-Americans can be put to immediate use in countries that have not been able to offer their populations similar luxuries until recently."
So while African-Americans are destroying the schools their children attend according to your narrative, apparently there are enough African-American students excelling somewhere in American schools that your homeland is actively pursuing them. Once again, still waiting on that disaggregated data.
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It seems pretty self explanatory what the problem is. This is more a cultural phenomenon than having anything to do with an issue with the school system. You could move White and Asian students to PG county schools and there would still be a substantial achievement gap between them and black/Hispanic students, and Im pretty certain this is already the case. Whites and Asians outperform Blacks/Hispanics scholastically basically everywhere in the country. At some point I think you stop looking for problems with the schools and just acknowlege that White and Asian students are generally flat out better at scholastic achievement than black and Hispanic students, most likely due to cultural reasons that people within the school system have basically no control over.
, no "black" is plunking down hundreds of thousands of dollars on a mortgage because they absolutely have to see another black face when they wake up in the morning. The FHA prior to the 1960s stipulated that anyone of any race could qualify for a loan (albeit much fewer for blacks) as long as that loan was not used 
