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So what? What does that have to do with your assertion that "prices will soar past NYC?"
I think you missed the point. There's no way in the world that DC will ever catch up to NYC or Paris in terms of cost. That notion is just ridiculous. Raising the height limits in DC is not going to prevent prices from "soaring past NYC" because that's not going to happen under any circumstances. The wealth in New York, Paris or London crushes anything DC has to offer. It's absolutely no competition. That more than anything will ensure that those cities will forever remain more expensive than DC, which ain't necessarily a good thing.
It's relevant because Manhattan does not represent all of New York. With DC you have a less dense city and smaller city reaching rents that are comparable to rents throughout NYC. That's bad.
I have to ask if you've ever been to the DC metro region? I ask because you just stated to MDAllStar that DC has a ton of empty land outside of it. 1990 and 2000 DC/NOVA/MD were a lot different than 2013 DC/NOVA/MD in that DC was fairly self contained and the areas around it were just sprawling suburbs. My family members lived in DC during the 80s comfortably with just high school diplomas. I mentioned earlier that how the land is being used outside of the city is big contributor to why I can get charged $1800 to live in an efficiency 30 miles away from the city. The entire region outside of the city is a sprawling suburb and people in housing subdivisions don't want developers constructing towers in their backyard. The ramifications of there being limited housing in the District is that it pushes people out into the suburbs expanding the sprawl, increasing commute times/traffic/air pollution, while also making the raising the property value of the housing divisions that are closest to the city. The suburbs around the city resemble the same type of suburbs and planning style typical of cities during the post war period. DC is effectively locked in and the rapid increase in the price of land over the past decade should be enough to tell someone who isn't from the area that. DC has the jobs to continue attracting top talent and people to the city trying to make something of themselves, but unlike cities such as Houston and Dallas which are growing at phenomenal rates(despite not having the allure of Paris or NY), it doesn't have the land to keep supporting outward expansion which has kept those cities inexpensive for so long. What it does have is a height restriction which makes no sense.
It's relevant because Manhattan does not represent all of New York. With DC you have a less dense city and smaller city reaching rents that are comparable to rents throughout NYC. That's bad.
No, what is your basis for saying that rents in DC will "soar past NYC?" It's silly to say that rents in Dupont Circle are going to "soar past" rents in Brownsville, Canarsie or Rego Park. That's about as far from an apples-to-apples comparison as you can get. How do rents and property values stack up in, say, Tribeca compared to Dupont Circle? That's more or less an apples-to-apples comparison. If your absolute top priority is cheap rent in the District, then by all means, move to Deanwood, Ivy City, or Marshall Heights. I'm sure there are plenty of $600 market rate apartments to be had in those neighborhoods. The only way you could pay that much in NYC is to land on welfare and earn your way into one of the city's numerous housing projects.
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Originally Posted by Octa
I have to ask if you've ever been to the DC metro region?
That's funny.
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Originally Posted by Octa
I ask because you just stated to MDAllStar that DC has a ton of empty land outside of it. 1990 and 2000 DC/NOVA/MD were a lot different than 2013 DC/NOVA/MD in that DC was fairly self contained and the areas around it were just sprawling suburbs.
There is a ton of empty land outside of DC. Did you not see the link I posted where the built environment transforms to complete forest once you cross the District Line from Fort Davis into Maryland?
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Originally Posted by Octa
mentioned earlier that how the land is being used outside of the city is big contributor to why I can get charged $1800 to live in an efficiency 30 miles away from the city.
If you're paying $1,800 to live in an efficiency 30 miles outside of the city, then that's your fault. You could live in a 1-BR in the Envoy off 16th Street for less than that. Or a studio apartment in the Argonne in Adams-Morgan for less than that. I know for a fact that you can rent a studio directly cross the street from Meridian Hill Park for $1,400. So I have no earthly idea what you're doing.
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Originally Posted by Octa
entire region outside of the city is a sprawling suburb and people in housing subdivisions don't want developers constructing towers in their backyard. The ramifications of there being limited housing in the District is that it pushes people out into the suburbs expanding the sprawl, increasing commute times/traffic/air pollution, while also making the raising the property value of the housing divisions that are closest to the city. The suburbs around the city resemble the same type of suburbs and planning style typical of cities during the post war period. DC is effectively locked in and the rapid increase in the price of land over the past decade should be enough to tell someone who isn't from the area that. DC has the jobs to continue attracting top talent and people to the city trying to make something of themselves, but unlike cities such as Houston and Dallas which are growing at phenomenal rates(despite not having the allure of Paris or NY), it doesn't have the land to keep supporting outward expansion which has kept those cities inexpensive for so long. What it does have is a height restriction which makes no sense.
What does this have to do with rents and property values "soaring past NYC?" Where are the $90 million condo sales? Where are the $10,000 rents? If DC had the same demand as NYC, wouldn't it have $90 million condo sales as well?
First, DC is light years away from seeing one million people. I'm not sure why you're convinced this will happen (perhaps for the same reason people thought home values would keep rising). DC didn't even have that many people in 1950. Second, not all of the infill has to be in the District. The suburbs are comparatively low density and could be infilled to a large extent if necessary. The notion that the DC area will just run out of land to build on in the next 20 years is beyond absurd.
No, that's not it. The area is not very dense. If you drive through Philadelphia on I-95 from Trenton, you can turn your head to the right at night time and see an endless street grid. That's because Philly is so much bigger than DC and maintains high densities far away from its core. I mean, crossing over the Sousa Bridge into Southeast puts you in some pretty low density neighborhoods, particularly in Hillcrest. Once you cross Southern Avenue, the transition to suburbia is complete. And that's not parkland.
I mean, do the math. How far away from DC do you have to go to achieve a population of 1.5 million people? And I'm sure whatever area that is doesn't come close to a density of 12,000 ppsm. Philly is just way denser than DC.
Yes, the infill does need to be in DC proper. Why would we want growth outside of the city? We need to fit as many people inside DC city limits as we can. We don't get tax dollars from Maryland or Virginia. DC would be a lot better with one million people in it. You talk about allure? DC with one million people in it would rival Manhattan and Paris. This city would be so different with that kind of density. There would be so many popular neighborhoods DC would not be the same. Keep building up and we can get there. Maybe 2060-2070 I could see DC getting there.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,143 posts, read 7,614,894 times
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
No, what is your basis for saying that rents in DC will "soar past NYC?" It's silly to say that rents in Dupont Circle are going to "soar past" rents in Brownsville, Canarsie or Rego Park. That's about as far from an apples-to-apples comparison as you can get. How do rents and property values stack up in, say, Tribeca compared to Dupont Circle? That's more or less an apples-to-apples comparison. If your absolute top priority is cheap rent in the District, then by all means, move to Deanwood, Ivy City, or Marshall Heights. I'm sure there are plenty of $600 market rate apartments to be had in those neighborhoods. The only way you could pay that much in NYC is to land on welfare and earn your way into one of the city's numerous housing projects.
That's funny.
There is a ton of empty land outside of DC. Did you not see the link I posted where the built environment transforms to complete forest once you cross the District Line from Fort Davis into Maryland?
If you're paying $1,800 to live in an efficiency 30 miles outside of the city, then that's your fault. You could live in a 1-BR in the Envoy off 16th Street for less than that. Or a studio apartment in the Argonne in Adams-Morgan for less than that. I know for a fact that you can rent a studio directly cross the street from Meridian Hill Park for $1,400. So I have no earthly idea what you're doing.
What does this have to do with rents and property values "soaring past NYC?" Where are the $90 million condo sales? Where are the $10,000 rents? If DC had the same demand as NYC, wouldn't it have $90 million condo sales as well?
It is not a "ton" nor does it turn into a "forest" those are both extreme exaggerations. That exact location you posted is adjacent to a HUGE cemetery, not in DC proper. In fact if you just zoom out to the aerial from above and survey the entire area it's surrounded by development on all sides of the cemetery. That stretch of Silver Hill rd or PA ave i can't remember is just lined with trees but there are neighborhoods all throughout there. (Maybe Octa was right when was the last time you were in the area lol). That area is not comparable to NE Phila of course, but the fact is just that the city proper is twice the size of DC so of course the density radiates out at a higher level from the core than DC does.
Last edited by the resident09; 06-06-2013 at 12:44 AM..
No, what is your basis for saying that rents in DC will "soar past NYC?" It's silly to say that rents in Dupont Circle are going to "soar past" rents in Brownsville, Canarsie or Rego Park. That's about as far from an apples-to-apples comparison as you can get. How do rents and property values stack up in, say, Tribeca compared to Dupont Circle? That's more or less an apples-to-apples comparison. If your absolute top priority is cheap rent in the District, then by all means, move to Deanwood, Ivy City, or Marshall Heights. I'm sure there are plenty of $600 market rate apartments to be had in those neighborhoods. The only way you could pay that much in NYC is to land on welfare and earn your way into one of the city's numerous housing projects.
That's funny.
There is a ton of empty land outside of DC. Did you not see the link I posted where the built environment transforms to complete forest once you cross the District Line from Fort Davis into Maryland?
If you're paying $1,800 to live in an efficiency 30 miles outside of the city, then that's your fault. You could live in a 1-BR in the Envoy off 16th Street for less than that. Or a studio apartment in the Argonne in Adams-Morgan for less than that. I know for a fact that you can rent a studio directly cross the street from Meridian Hill Park for $1,400. So I have no earthly idea what you're doing.
What does this have to do with rents and property values "soaring past NYC?" Where are the $90 million condo sales? Where are the $10,000 rents? If DC had the same demand as NYC, wouldn't it have $90 million condo sales as well?
Alright well I'm done. You're just going to keep begging the question.
The question though is WHY would / should DC want to accommodate over a million people? That would not be a draw to anyone. JOBS are the draw. Nobody is coming to DC for the allure of the people.... Even if it ever got to that point, which (unlike all these idiots paying over 700k for teeny houses) I don't think it will, like another poster mentioned, there is land in NE and SE to build and expand the city. I don't think high rises are the answer. Better transit and infrastructure are what's needed and will be the only way to make DC look even remotely close to a worldclass city.
If that doesn't happen, DC will NEVER be a high-end, major city (try as DC folks might) like NY or LA to warrant $XX mil + type of home values. This is a white collar town, without the cultural draw that other destination cities around the world have. Why would any worker bee or (politician even) spend that kinda dough to live here? Not saying they don't, but for all the FAIL that is the local govt, transit, etc. it's just not there. What is the draw to DC? JOBS! which is the only reason COL here is high. Here's an analogy, DC=San Francisco, yeah you can make that comparison, and in that event, the outlying areas are where the population will grow. But San Fran is still not in the same boat as NY or Paris, so I think that DC=NY/Paris/London/LA comparison is a bit weak.
The question though is WHY would / should DC want to accommodate over a million people? That would not be a draw to anyone. JOBS are the draw. Nobody is coming to DC for the allure of the people.... Even if it ever got to that point, which (unlike all these idiots paying over 700k for teeny houses) I don't think it will, like another poster mentioned, there is land in NE and SE to build and expand the city. I don't think high rises are the answer. Better transit and infrastructure are what's needed and will be the only way to make DC look even remotely close to a worldclass city.
If that doesn't happen, DC will NEVER be a high-end, major city (try as DC folks might) like NY or LA to warrant $XX mil + type of home values. This is a white collar town, without the cultural draw that other destination cities around the world have. Why would any worker bee or (politician even) spend that kinda dough to live here? Not saying they don't, but for all the FAIL that is the local govt, transit, etc. it's just not there. What is the draw to DC? JOBS! which is the only reason COL here is high. Here's an analogy, DC=San Francisco, yeah you can make that comparison, and in that event, the outlying areas are where the population will grow. But San Fran is still not in the same boat as NY or Paris, so I think that DC=NY/Paris/London/LA comparison is a bit weak.
L.A.?
LOL....last time I checked, L.A. was a big suburb. There is nothing urban about LA in the slightest. Are you trying to lump LA in with major urban cities around the world with worldclass subway systems and dense streetgrids? L.A. is not urban, therefore, it is not worldclass on the level we are talking about. Sure there are alot of people living there and there is alot of money there, but it's not built to be urban. Look at the streets. Look at the buildings. No streetwall or anything. Paris and New York yes, L.A. no.
LOL....last time I checked, L.A. was a big suburb. There is nothing urban about LA in the slightest. Are you trying to lump LA in with major urban cities around the world with worldclass subway systems and dense streetgrids? L.A. is not urban, therefore, it is not worldclass on the level we are talking about. Sure there are alot of people living there and there is alot of money there, but it's not built to be urban. Look at the streets. Look at the buildings. No streetwall or anything. Paris and New York yes, L.A. no.
LOL there's this thing called reading...
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DC will NEVER be a high-end, major city (try as DC folks might) like NY or LA to warrant $XX mil + type of home values. This is a white collar town, without the cultural draw that other destination cities around the world have.
...meaning that LA is a destination city known around the world which warrants the astronomical home prices in many LA neighborhoods, even those further out.
Second, and probably the most glaring hole in your post-- I'm not quite sure what your definition of urban is, considering the LA area is the SECOND LARGEST URBAN area in the United States (behind NY) according to the Census.
So yeah, not sure about what your definition of urban is, or why population should be concentrated in downtown when clearly it cannot be concentrated downtown (infrastructure, transit, etc.) when DC is not the type of city (cultural destination) to warrant that sort of population.
...meaning that LA is a destination city known around the world which warrants the astronomical home prices in many LA neighborhoods, even those further out.
Second, and probably the most glaring hole in your post-- I'm not quite sure what your definition of urban is, considering the LA area is the SECOND LARGEST URBAN area in the United States (behind NY) according to the Census.
So yeah, not sure about what your definition of urban is, or why population should be concentrated in downtown when clearly it cannot be concentrated downtown (infrastructure, transit, etc.) when DC is not the type of city (cultural destination) to warrant that sort of population.
When I am talking about urban, I am talking about the structural density of the city.
Do the building form a streetwall (urban canyon's with no breaks between buildings (e.g., Manhattan, Downtown D.C., Chicago Loop, D.C./Philly/Baltimore rowhouses, etc.)?
Do the building's come up to the street?
Is parking built under buildings in subsurface parking garages?
Are surface parking lots minimized or non-existent?
Are streets narrow?
Does the city possess a very easy option to live without a car?
Does the city possess substantial transportation option's (bikeshare, carsharing, subway, etc.)
Urban design is very specific and urban planners design and master plan based on these principals. L.A. is a poster child for what not to do. D.C. is a leader in TOD development and modern urban design and transportation with studies and books modeling after the development in this region. L.A. is a big Atlanta basically. Population has nothing to do with urbanity. Have you been to India? Buildings represent urbanity.
As for D.C. prices versus other city prices, I don't care about them nor did I address them. Why are you quoting it? I started this thread and it had nothing to do with D.C.'s cost of living.
It is not a "ton" nor does it turn into a "forest" those are both extreme exaggerations. That exact location you posted is adjacent to a HUGE cemetery, not in DC proper. In fact if you just zoom out to the aerial from above and survey the entire area it's surrounded by development on all sides of the cemetery. That stretch of Silver Hill rd or PA ave i can't remember is just lined with trees but there are neighborhoods all throughout there. (Maybe Octa was right when was the last time you were in the area lol). That area is not comparable to NE Phila of course, but the fact is just that the city proper is twice the size of DC so of course the density radiates out at a higher level from the core than DC does.
Yes, there is a ton of land. And no, I'm not exaggerating. Compare suburban Maryland, for example, to the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles.
It's not even close. There are abundant opporunities for infill all over the DC region, which is why you're seeing infill in the DC region.
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