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I am NOT advocating that people forgo vaccination. I am, however, pragmatic and understand that we can't mandate our way to 100% vaccinate rates (and even if we did apparently we'll all continue to get infected and sick and sometimes even die). I understand that some people who don't want vaccines already have natural immunity and that they could be just as protected as those that have been vaccinated and keep their jobs.
In a way, I agree with parts of what you posted, but again, insulting people and assuming that they are idiots is the whole problem.
Many people in my area are less concerned about the effects of Covid and more concerned about the newly-precedented and far-reaching effects of government control caused by the excuse that they call Covid.
To some people, it's not a simple as "do whatever the government tells you, and we will all be fine"...
Look. Vaccine mandates are not new. Once upon a time smallpox was raging in our country and George Washington mandated that all troops must be inoculated for smallpox if they had not survived smallpox earlier in life in 1777. During the American Revolution, smallpox was the cause of 90% of our soldier deaths. Talk about a national security risk. Our very first primitive attempt to inoculate for smallpox was to inject a small amount of blood of infected people directly into people. Talk about scary. Yikes.
Fast forward to 1905 and the SCOTUS case Jacobson vs Massachusetts. Jacobson refused the mandatory smallpox vaccine in 1901. Smallpox was raging and a vaccine mandate was issued or face a steep $5 dollar fine. The case went to the state court with the argument that the vaccine law violated the constitution and his liberty. Sound familiar? That case was rejected and it went to the supreme court with the same result. Justice John Marshall wrote " The good and welfare of the Commonwealth , of which the legislature is primarily the judge, is the basis on which the police power rests in Massachusetts. Upon the principle of self defense, of paramount necessity, a community has the right to protect itself against an epidemic of disease which threatens the safety of its members."
Were there exceptions? Yes, but only if it was reasonable that the vaccine could cause physical harm.
Two years following the case The Anti-Vaccine League of America was born.
In 1922 the league challenged the vaccination mandates for children going to school. It again was shot down by the SCOTUS because the precedence has already been set by Jacobson vs Mass. To this day children must be vaccinated to attend school.
Excuse they call Covid? How much of that partisan kool-aid have you been drinking? Do you know anybody working in health care now that you can talk to about it? My friends working in health care are at the end of their rope with this. I can feel their despair, fear, and burn out. Watch one of your colleagues die from this and you too will be clamoring to get vaccinated.
You're worried about your free dumb? Vaccine mandates are not far reaching government control, they are necessary to protect society from the misguided. entitled all about me mentality which exists in a small percentage of the population. The vast majority of us will not be held hostage by the tyranny of the minority. End of story.
You refuse to get vaccinated even though the Pfizer vaccine is now fully approved by the FDA. You still don't trust it? Do you trust anything else prescribed by a physician that is FDA approved? If the answer is yes then you need to stop reading propaganda and go talk to a medical professional.
What happened to smallpox which raged for decades? Oh right. It was eradicated through vaccination.
I am NOT advocating that people forgo vaccination. I am, however, pragmatic and understand that we can't mandate our way to 100% vaccinate rates (and even if we did apparently we'll all continue to get infected and sick and sometimes even die). I understand that some people who don't want vaccines already have natural immunity and that they could be just as protected as those that have been vaccinated and keep their jobs.
So why was Trump booed at one of his rallies when he finally admitted that he had the vaccine post Covid? There's a pretty big hint for you there that if someone who has the best health care in the world is still vaccinated post Covid that vaccination might actually might be something worth looking into.
I know somebody that had Covid not once but twice. RSV is a virus that you can have more than once in your lifetime and unfortunately Covid is looking to follow in its footsteps.
I also know someone who was post vaccination, 75 years old, and a cancer survivor that died from Covid.
You're right. Not 100% of our population will be vaccinated. There will still be stubborn people on their death beds wishing they had though.
I think I may have had Covid about two months ago. I had both GI symptoms for one day. A sore throat and what felt like a bad cold until I realized that I couldn't smell anything. Zero for about two weeks.
Vaccines won't stop you from getting sick, but in the vast majority of cases, will stop you from being hospitalized with it.
While vaccines are not 100% perfect or effective, they sure are better than rolling the dice with Covid without one.
So why was Trump booed at one of his rallies when he finally admitted that he had the vaccine post Covid? There's a pretty big hint for you there that if someone who has the best health care in the world is still vaccinated post Covid that vaccination might actually might be something worth looking into.
I know somebody that had Covid not once but twice. RSV is a virus that you can have more than once in your lifetime and unfortunately Covid is looking to follow in its footsteps.
I also know someone who was post vaccination, 75 years old, and a cancer survivor that died from Covid.
You're right. Not 100% of our population will be vaccinated. There will still be stubborn people on their death beds wishing they had though.
I think I may have had Covid about two months ago. I had both GI symptoms for one day. A sore throat and what felt like a bad cold until I realized that I couldn't smell anything. Zero for about two weeks.
Vaccines won't stop you from getting sick, but in the vast majority of cases, will stop you from being hospitalized with it.
While vaccines are not 100% perfect or effective, they sure are better than rolling the dice with Covid without one.
I don't pay attention to Trump or his followers so I don't care what happened at his rally.
Your other comments about the vaccine seem reasonable to what I've learned and what I think about Covid.
I'm vaccinated (on top of probable natural immunity) but I'm not sure if I'm willing to take a booster right now. My reaction to the vaccine seems to have been more extreme than most experience (fast heartbeat and a 103 degree fever) and I'm just not certain I'm willing to go through that again at the moment.
People take gambles with their lives all the time. They get into addictions, they make terrible lifestyle choices, they do things that increase their risk of accidents... or other things like sexually transmitted diseases and gun violence. But we allow drugs and guns. We allow gluttony.
I don't see this as any different. We know that if our population was healthier they wouldn't get as sick from Covid, but instead of shaming the sh!tty lifestyles that cause lots and lots of problems for individuals and society we're going to be myopic and shame people for not taking a vaccine that still allows for reinfection and sometimes even hospitalization and death.
I think pragmatically and I think we can't and won't vax our way out of this so we might as well consider alternatives.
Oh no! I didn't convince Kavm of my perspective! My whole week is just ruined now!
I am sorry I tried to give you a serious and rational response with credible links providing supporting information. I mistook your post to be more serious than cheap anti-vaxx misinformation that it was. My mistake!
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingsaucermom
I was listening to the news radio this afternoon and someone mentioned a hospital, out east somewhere (not WA state), that is allowing workers to forgo the vaccine IF and ONLY IF they had had Covid. In other words: They are accepting natural immunity as an alternative to artificial immunity from vaccines.
My sister has take such a test and has determined that she has also already had Covid infection in addition to having been vaccinated.
So my question is: why are we, as a society, not allowing for individuals to choose between natural and artificial immunity at scale? Why are we not testing for natural immunity? Why is this not presented as an option for continued employment when so many, especially those that interface with the public regularly, have already fought -and won- covid?
Anyone mandate-erators want to take a stab at this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingsaucermom
You are saying that vaccine effectiveness is stable among people? That every single individual’s immune system reacts in the exact same way and that there is no difference in vaccine response as there isn’t a difference between the available vaccines?
If it’s not “actual immunity” then why is a health care facility accepting it?
What are your credentials to say what you are saying?
Not that any of this any more serious than the post I bothered responding to, but to prevent readers to be misled by you, here is a discussion of the point in the Washington Post -
Here is an article in British Medical Journal capturing the situation on Manaus earlier this year. This city suffered a second major infection in January which many thought would be impossible as 70-80% its residents had already had Covid 19 in an earlier wave (and, therefore, had the Covid antibodies). This largely punctured the argument that natural impunity from previous Covid infection is sufficient in countering stronger variants.
Similarly consequential miscalculation occurred in India. Last year, the infection numbers and deaths were modest in India - seen as a function of prior infections and virus in the region which gave Indian people a higher level of resistance to Sars-Cov-2. That all shattered with the Delta virus this Spring. Indians got hit very hard by Delta and while the officially reported death numbers were about 500,000, the unofficial estimates were around 10 times that (5M) - https://www.wsj.com/articles/indias-...ds-11626792531
So, all this serious business and this anti-vaxx push that you are propagating has serious consequences, in short and long term.
I am sorry I tried to give you a serious and rational response with credible links providing supporting information. I mistook your post to be more serious than cheap anti-vaxx misinformation that it was. My mistake!
Not that any of this any more serious than the post I bothered responding to, but to prevent readers to be misled by you, here is a discussion of the point in the Washington Post -
Here is an article in British Medical Journal capturing the situation on Manaus earlier this year. This city suffered a second major infection in January which many thought would be impossible as 70-80% its residents had already had Covid 19 in an earlier wave (and, therefore, had the Covid antibodies). This largely punctured the argument that natural impunity from previous Covid infection is sufficient in countering stronger variants.
Similarly consequential miscalculation occurred in India. Last year, the infection numbers and deaths were modest in India - seen as a function of prior infections and virus in the region which gave Indian people a higher level of resistance to Sars-Cov-2. That all shattered with the Delta virus this Spring. Indians got hit very hard by Delta and while the officially reported death numbers were about 500,000, the unofficial estimates were around 10 times that (5M) -
[url]https://www.wsj.com/articles/indias-covid-19-death-toll-is-likely-in-the-millions-study-finds-11626792531[/url]
So, all this serious business and this anti-vaxx push that you are propagating has serious consequences, in short and long term.
You can post all the "studies" you want. I could waste my time and also post "studies".
If you haven't noticed, I'm trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm stating that I'm convinced we're not going to fix this problem with vaccines. You are free to believe whatever you want.
Mostly I'm asking questions. Lots of them. And I'm voicing doubts. And they are reasonable even though you don't believe that to be true.
Your opinion against mine and that's why I won't take you so seriously.
You lose credibility when you label me as pushing "anti-vax propaganda" when not only have I taken my shot but I support others taking theirs.
Is your reactivity causing you to not read throughly or something?
I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion I'm "anti-vax". It's a problem though that you do. You should fix that and then maybe we can have that discussion about mandates. Otherwise: bug off.
You are saying that vaccine effectiveness is stable among people? That every single individual’s immune system reacts in the exact same way and that there is no difference in vaccine response as there isn’t a difference between the available vaccines?
It's the opposite. There is no easy way to predict how much resistance an individual has, the amount of resistance does vary between how they got the antibodies but we only have a general idea based on future infections that the population gets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingsaucermom
If it’s not “actual immunity” then why is a health care facility accepting it?
What are your credentials to say what you are saying?
Vaccinations are the best we have without shutting everything down, even though we know it isn't 100% effective it is considered good enough to be an acceptably lower level of risk.
My credentials? I actually read medical literature, not just the headlines in the news that are often very different to the research results.
I mean, seriously, if you want to talk about spreading a lie... calling me an anti-vax-er is certainly on that level.
Have a good day!
Sorry it hurts but 'looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck'. Despite your protestations, that's what the content of your posts reflects.
And, understand that you don't want the links to study but want to argue on the basis of your undergrad course in biology. On Covid - there is data from around the world to inform us and your insistence on rejecting it tells all there is to know.
Sorry it hurts but 'looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck'. Despite your protestations, that's what the content of your posts reflects.
And, understand that you don't want the links to study but want to argue on the basis of your undergrad course in biology. On Covid - there is data from around the world to inform us and your insistence on rejecting it tells all there is to know.
I'm "hurt"???
Look at you spreading more lies...
I'm against the mandates, not vaccines.
Apparently reading critically is hard for you given all the wrong conclusions you're making, but the title of the thread is asking for my opinion on vaccine mandates.
I gave my opinion... on vaccine mandates.
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So why was Trump booed at one of his rallies when he finally admitted that he had the vaccine post Covid? There's a pretty big hint for you there that if someone who has the best health care in the world is still vaccinated post Covid that vaccination might actually might be something worth looking into. 
