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An example of how the Mediterranean is very warm for its latitude. Mersin, Turkey at 36.5N has an annual mean of over 20C. That's almost as warm as Brisbane, warmer than Porto Alegre, Goma and northern coastal NSW, and significantly warmer than Toowoomba, Curitiba and Harare.
I would say that Milan feels oceanic in many ways, but that Rijeka or Zadar start to feel more subtropical since 10C winter daily highs isn't that cold any more.
Very true though Greece and Turkey are continental influenced and given the Mediterranean sea it is situated on is much warmer than the Ocean that Brisbane and NSW is situated on it's summer temperatures will not be heavily moderated by a cooler ocean. The Mediterranean water temperature gets up to 30°C in these areas.
The summers are the reason it's Annual mean is similar to Brisbane. Brisbane is much warmer in Spring, Winter and late Autumn. Obviously due to it being a more oceanic climate with less variation between the seasons compared to Mersin
The summer average lows for Turkey and Greece are impressively high for its latitude.
While other parts of the world such as Western Australia, California, South Africa might share the same name as the Mediterranean climate they are all generally moderated by an ocean while the Mediterranean in Europe is it's own micro climate being on a body of water that is much warmer.
I'm not sure why Dallas is quintessential Cfa. It has hotter summers than most Cfa climates and an almost Mediterranean precipitation pattern. I would have thought somewhere like Atlanta was more typical of Cfa, due to its flat precipitation pattern.
Most true humid subtropical climates have precip concentrated in the hot/warm months (or summer). If you look at places like Brisbane, Jacksonville, Shanghai, ...etc seasonal rainfall is always highest at the time of high sun (summer).
From what I understand of it, in the United States, especially on the inland and northern fringes of the subtropical zone (cities like Dallas and Atlanta), the normal summer rainfall/winter drier pattern gets interrupted by the frequent winter low pressure/storms (whose centers are often well north of these cities) that bring precip in winter and even early spring. So the pattern of high sun rain/low sun drier is often missing from many parts of the USA subtropical zone, esp north and inland.
That is a bit extreme. Milan is clearly right on boderline of what is Subtropical and could be regarded as such if we go off Koppen. Even if we didn't it is only a few hours from cities that are clearly subtropical (Csa) such as Rome. Northern Europe would be closer to the Subarctic than subtropics especially Ireland, UK and Scandinavia.
I do agree with you though those winters is why I feel most won't see it as Subtropical. Very different from Southern Italy
Koppen, is a laughing stock of a system. Rome is not subtropical.
Northern Europe wouldn't be 'closer to the subarctic'-- it IS in the subarctic zone! With a very cool climate year round, albeit not exactly a subarctic climate per se in the more southern parts. Northern Europe, meaning north of 54 N (that's my definition of N. Europe-- I don't go by petty national borders).
Subantarctic zone in the S. Hem starts as little as 46 degrees south (Milan's latitude!) til 60 south where it becomes fully-fledged Antarctic (despite being well equatorward of the polar circle). Bouvet Island @ 54 S is a borderline ice cap (!) at sea level. I'd say Antarctic starts more like 57 S rather than 60. South Sandwich and Southern Thule islands are most definitely Antarctic islands.
Last edited by WesterlyWX; 06-11-2023 at 07:06 PM..
Koppen, is a laughing stock of a system.Rome is not subtropical.
Northern Europe wouldn't be 'closer to the subarctic'-- it IS in the subarctic zone! With a very cool climate year round, albeit not exactly a subarctic climate per se in the more southern parts. Northern Europe, meaning north of 54 N (that's my definition of N. Europe-- I don't go by petty national borders).
Subantarctic zone in the S. Hem starts as little as 46 degrees south (Milan's latitude!) til 60 south where it becomes fully-fledged Antarctic (despite being well equatorward of the polar circle).
It is Cfa though -the issue here isn't whether or not Rome is Cfa, but if subtropical is the right term for Cfa climates.
Do you think the winter threshold to qualify Cfa, should be raised to eliminate Rome from Cfa?
It is Cfa though -the issue here isn't whether or not Rome is Cfa, but if subtropical is the right term for Cfa climates.
Do you think the winter threshold to qualify Cfa, should be raised to eliminate Rome from Cfa?
I would say not. Look at the massive fiasco of thread after thread after thread, as many deleted as there are still around, of what happens when it is assumed so.
Koppen's warm, moist, temperate climate original term is appropriate if you ask me. Cfa climates are dominated by warm weather, they get plenty of rain to offset evapotranspiration, and the winters (which the term temperate refers to) are neither hot nor cold but either cool or comfortable with no snowpack - if that's not temperate I don't know what is.
All that has to be done is ditching the term subtropical.
It is Cfa though -the issue here isn't whether or not Rome is Cfa, but if subtropical is the right term for Cfa climates.
Do you think the winter threshold to qualify Cfa, should be raised to eliminate Rome from Cfa?
I don't use this 'Cfa' nonsense. I use the original, textbook definition of the subtropics i.e., at the mercy of the Horse Latitudes high pressure ridge all year round. Rome is certainly not under its influence for a sizeable part of the year-- very briefly in the summer and that's it. It's a mild climate most of the year, as opposed to a truly warm climate like Gunnedah NSW (quintessentially subtropical both in latitude and in temperature, rainfall pattern).
I think instead to put in place an ANNUAL temperature threshold-- Rome's is simply too low. It's like Wodonga in Northeast Victoria which is decidedly NOT subtropical and very solidly temperate.
I would say not. Look at the massive fiasco of thread after thread after thread, as many deleted as there are still around, of what happens when it is assumed so.
Koppen's warm, moist, temperate climate original term is appropriate if you ask me. Cfa climates are dominated by warm weather, they get plenty of rain to offset evapotranspiration, and the winters (which the term temperate refers to) are neither hot nor cold but either cool or comfortable with no snowpack - if that's not temperate I don't know what is.
All that has to be done is ditching the term subtropical.
No-- all that has to be done, is separating subtropical from temperate. They should be entirely different categories. Why do you insist on merging the subtropics with the temperate zone? They are wildly different.
Your 'warm moist temperate climate', is not subtropical. Especially the 'moist' part, given that the Subtropics are by far the most arid region on Earth...
I don't use this 'Cfa' nonsense. I use the original, textbook definition of the subtropics i.e., at the mercy of the Horse Latitudes high pressure ridge all year round. Rome is certainly not under its influence for a sizeable part of the year-- very briefly in the summer and that's it. It's a mild climate most of the year, as opposed to a truly warm climate like Gunnedah NSW (quintessentially subtropical both in latitude and in temperature, rainfall pattern).
Some merit in that - many of the thresholds seem arbitrary.
Quote:
I think instead to put in place an ANNUAL temperature threshold-- Rome's is simply too low. It's like Wodonga in Northeast Victoria which is decidedly NOT subtropical and very solidly temperate.
This creates more problems than solutions imo - temperate climates have a huge range of conditions, so the term is pretty meaningless when trying to understand any climate labelled as such.
I have Milan as temperate/subtropical transitional climate (Tts), or subtropical/temperate (a marginal dinstinction) depending on the station used and POR. Thermally it's too cold annually-wise to belong to the warm climate's family where Subtropical, among others, is in. Its annual average places it in the 'neutral' zone thermally, hence the transtional nature. Obviously its subtropical trait comes from the high Pp amounts.
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