Democracy Under Attack in WI (Kelly: deed, manufacturing, pubs)

[Chriscross309]

Originally Posted by sub

To say that liberal=jobs and conservative=poverty is oversimplifying things a bit.

Or a lot.

In both cases, the results are often in spite of, not because of.
There are so many other factors at play.

Voting isn't difficult. Never has been in my lifetime.
Efforts to make things "easier" are worthy of suspicion.
Evers' press release just confirms that he's just another hack beholden to the extremities of his party.
His little plan looks like a train wreck waiting to happen.

The other side seriously needs to field a solid candidate next time. Evers can't be that hard to beat.

The trend that I keep seeing is.

1. Conservative state/city creates an environment that encourages business development and people to move there.

2. That attracts liberals from other states for higher paying job opportunities.

3. The cities that attracted people based off of conservative principles, are now crowed with liberals and left leaning ideology.

4. Those cities become progressively liberal in character and in voting record.

5. The conservative laws and atmosphere that enabled the growth in the first place are now struggling under liberal ideology.

Many cities in the south are experiencing this, and I would imagine it's similar in the Midwest.

[mikeugh]

Originally Posted by Chriscross309

The trend that I keep seeing is.

1. Conservative state/city creates an environment that encourages business development and people to move there.

2. That attracts liberals from other states for higher paying job opportunities.

3. The cities that attracted people based off of conservative principles, are now crowed with liberals and left leaning ideology.

4. Those cities become progressively liberal in character and in voting record.

5. The conservative laws and atmosphere that enabled the growth in the first place are now struggling under liberal ideology.

Many cities in the south are experiencing this, and I would imagine it's similar in the Midwest.

I've never lived in the South, but this is certainly not the case in Wisconsin. Wisconsin, traditionally, has been one of the more progressive states in the country going back to the late 19th and early 20th century. The labor and environmental movements (which in some ways started here) were at the forefront of society until recent times as the state. 0utside of Madison and Milwaukee, Wisconsin has become much more conservative in my life time. Both parties are to blame for this.

[Ariadne22]

Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto

Any Gerrymandering that has been done in WI was done by amateurs. We keep hearing the accusation that voting districts are drawn to make a difference here, but I've yet to see any concrete proof of that...

I come from Il where the Dems have had one party rule for many decades. My district was shaped like a lop-sided dumbell with the handle being a six mile long stretch of one street-- and only one side of the street at that. It connected a larger area of reliabley Dem votes in the city with a smaller area of suburban voters. That diluted the mainly GOP votes with the large number of Dems.

With WI's SE lake front counties & Madison/Dane Co being reliably Dem and the rest of the state being more reasonabley divided between the parties, it's near impossible to "dilute" those Dem votes in an effective way for the GOP....Please show me an example to the contrary to correct me.

Don't know enough about map-drawing to offer an alternative, but there must be a better way. Right now, the GOP RULES the legislature - one or two seats away from a supermajority - and the state because of gerrymandering - essentially, the tail wagging the dog. Why shouldn't the economic powerhouses of the state - Madison and Milwaukee - have FAIR representation? A 64% GOP control of legislature is outrageous and NOT representative; 36% Dem representation for 50-52% of the voters is NOT fair. Small glimmer of hope - some of the reliably red WOW counties are losing GOP ground due to their ignorant and backward policies - and - big prayer, here - with the election of new SC judge Protasiewicz - the court may eventually be able to somewhat mitigate the huge imbalance on the maps. If I have to crawl, I'll be at the polls on April 4th.

[Ariadne22]

Originally Posted by mikeugh

What they've done to the WDNR is shameful. Completely shameful.

The 'law and liberty' gunslingers forcing via a lawsuit that hideous last-minute wolf hunt during breeding season, shooting pregnant females, and then taking almost TWICE the number of wolves allotted in TWO days because of barbaric hunting methods using radio-collared dogs and RVs. Because 24-hour notice is required, the DNR couldn't shut the hunt down fast enough to control the slaughter.

The incident with Prehn squatting for FOUR YEARS as chair of the Wisconsin National Resources Board - during Evers entire first term - was disgusting and immoral - and wins the blue ribbon grand prize for hubris and entitlement. Talk about giving a big f u to the voters.

It is more than clear - if these narrow-minded, ignorant ideologues can't win an election, they'll be sure the winner can't govern.

[guidoLaMoto]

Originally Posted by Ariadne22

Don't know enough about map-drawing to offer an alternative, but there must be a better way....

I guess we should never let ignorance porevent us from forming a strong opinion...It sounds like you're just bleating the repeated false claim of The Left....What well respected politician once said "Elections have consequences" ?

RE- wolf hunts...Predator/prey relationshiops are well studied. It's easy to deduce that prey & predator populations rise and fall in tandem...Ask any WI deer hunter in northern WI-- yearly harvest numbers of deer are way down because deer populations are way down because wolve populations are way up...Now that there is less food available in the northern half of the state for the wolves, they are finding their way further south every year since the wolf hunt was curtailed by a Liberal judge in MASSACHUSITTS. (!!!) What does he know about WI?

What is more inhumane-- to shoot and kill a pregnant she-wolf, or let the pups be born only to starve to death? Are you "Pro-Life" too, or a hypocrite? Graduates of The Bambi School of Environmerntal Sciences should not be allowed to have input into wildlife management plans. ...You do realize the animals don't really speak English to each other in the woods?

Sorry for the rant, but it's difficult to be reasonable with unreasonable people.

[Ariadne22]

Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto

I guess we should never let ignorance porevent us from forming a strong opinion...It sounds like you're just bleating the repeated false claim of The Left....What well respected politician once said "Elections have consequences" ?

RE- wolf hunts...Predator/prey relationshiops are well studied. It's easy to deduce that prey & predator populations rise and fall in tandem...Ask any WI deer hunter in northern WI-- yearly harvest numbers of deer are way down because deer populations are way down because wolve populations are way up...Now that there is less food available in the northern half of the state for the wolves, they are finding their way further south every year since the wolf hunt was curtailed by a Liberal judge in MASSACHUSITTS. (!!!) What does he know about WI?

What is more inhumane-- to shoot and kill a pregnant she-wolf, or let the pups be born only to starve to death? Are you "Pro-Life" too, or a hypocrite? Graduates of The Bambi School of Environmerntal Sciences should not be allowed to have input into wildlife management plans. ...You do realize the animals don't really speak English to each other in the woods?

Sorry for the rant, but it's difficult to be reasonable with unreasonable people.

Suggest some further research and education is needed here.

WI is OVERPOPULATED with deer - TWO MILLION to be exact.

Because of this overpopulation, CWD is spreading throughout the deer population, both in deer farms and in the wild, to the point hundreds of deer were depopulated by the DNR at deer farms last year.

CWD has been found in deer harvested in the last hunt.

DNR is proposing raising antlerless deer permits in an attempt to cull this huge herd - which theatens its own survival through disease and starvation.

CWD has now been found in our elks, as well, of which there are only a few hundred.

It is the deer subject to starvation, not the wolf. The deer are striping growth in our forests to the point some forests can't recover.

Granted, wolves are predators and a nuisance in areas with livestock, but they are also needed, in reasonable numbers, for ecological balance.

We have an issue of not enough wolves in the areas where the deer herd most needs culling. We certainly do not have an issue of too few deer.

Tons of in-depth articles on this issue in our state papers.

[Ariadne22]

Further to above, DNR estimates 1,000 wolves in WI. Let's say they're wrong and triple that to 3,000. They also say one wolf eats the equivalent of eight deer a year. Worst case, our pack of 3,000 wolves kill 24,000 deer a year out of that herd of two million - a mere 1% of the herd. WI wolves are hardly in danger of starving. Just sayin' .

[guidoLaMoto]

Originally Posted by Ariadne22

Suggest some further research and education is needed here.

WI is OVERPOPULATED with deer - TWO MILLION to be exact.

Because of this overpopulation, CWD is spreading throughout the deer population, both in deer farms and in the wild, to the point hundreds of deer were depopulated by the DNR at deer farms last year.

The state as a whole is overpopulated with deer when averaged out, but they are distributed unevenly-- WAY too many in the south half and not enough -thanks to unscientific wolf harvest laws- in the north.

While CWD will spread more quickly in densely populated areas, it's not that big a diff because deer travel in social groups (harems with competiition for females among groups) anyways...and the recent CoV experience should have taught even the most obtuse among us that the only way for Nature to compensate for an infectious process is to let it run its course naturally--the S-I-R Theory of epidemics. Wringiiing hands and lamenting does not help.

Read this https://archive.org/details/murray-1...atical-biology then get back to us. It's much more complex than just population minus kills-- It has to do with critical values and the math of chaos that allows wide swings in populations. Cf- the 17yr cicada population dynamics as an extreme example.

I think I know a little more about it than you think. Politics with a bleediing heart attitude and science don't mix.

edit to correct mis-info-- WI deer popolation in total is 1.5million, with a 50% growth since wolf hunting was proscribed. A coincidence? https://dnr.wi.gov/wideermetrics/DeerStats.aspx?R=2

Note how deer polulation in the north has fallen off by 75% in some areas of the north https://dnr.wi.gov/wideermetrics/DeerStats.aspx?R=2

[Mapmatician]

The word democracy was never used in the Constitution nor the Declaration of Independence. America is not a democracy, it is a Constitutional Republic.

[guidoLaMoto]

Right, but- that same Constitution set the govt up as a representative democracy-- officials elected by plebiscite make the laws and enforce them..In a simple democracy, the citizens vote on the laws themselves-- fine when you're just 500 land-owning Athenian voters, but a little cumbersome when there are 150million voters involved.