Nature Protection and Liberal Arts (consulting, temporary, job, paid)

[merced mullet]

Originally Posted by ColorsWolf

How often did you chop down trees and what were the circumstances, were the trees still alive?~

What are your recommendations based on all that you have read so far for me, if you have any?~

I really don't want to started on wildland fire suppression tactics 'cause I like to spend more time on the Hawaii relocation forum (l'm originally from the "Garden Island" - Kaua'i)...

...in a nutshell trees (live or dead) removed during fireline construction are based on two (2) reasons:

1. Firefighter personal safety (highest priority)
2. Potential threat to the fireline

Firefighter personal safety - trees along the fireline weakened by the fire, bugs & disease , or overmaturity add to the hazards to firefighters working in the fireline. Dead or weakened limbs, unstable tree butt, live fire in the crown or top can cause large tree branches to fall and kill firefighters working underneath the tree. Unfortunately, we kill too many young firefighters each year to this cause. Falling the tree before beginning fireline construction in the immediate vicinity of the "hazard tree" minimizes exposure to the firefighters working underneath the tree, whether live or dead.

Potential threat to the fireline - trees, either live or dead, can topple over the fireline if the catch on fire. A 150 foot tree with fire in it toppling over your fireline will spread the fire to the unburned side of your fireline and ...there you go...you just wasted the day putting in the fireline. Also embers launching themselves from a branch if a tree along the fireline will do the same thing on the unburned side of your line. So you want to remove any trees (live or dead) along your fireline.

Recommendations? I think everyone else has said the same thing to you that l would tell you.
Fire crews are para-military structured so if the military wasn't your thing, being in a crew won't be your cup of tea.

Good luck...
...now let me get back to the Hawaii forum...

[ColorsWolf]

Originally Posted by merced mullet

I really don't want to started on wildland fire suppression tactics 'cause I like to spend more time on the Hawaii relocation forum (l'm originally from the "Garden Island" - Kaua'i)...

...in a nutshell trees (live or dead) removed during fireline construction are based on two (2) reasons:

1. Firefighter personal safety (highest priority)
2. Potential threat to the fireline

Firefighter personal safety - trees along the fireline weakened by the fire, bugs & disease , or overmaturity add to the hazards to firefighters working in the fireline. Dead or weakened limbs, unstable tree butt, live fire in the crown or top can cause large tree branches to fall and kill firefighters working underneath the tree. Unfortunately, we kill too many young firefighters each year to this cause. Falling the tree before beginning fireline construction in the immediate vicinity of the "hazard tree" minimizes exposure to the firefighters working underneath the tree, whether live or dead.

Potential threat to the fireline - trees, either live or dead, can topple over the fireline if the catch on fire. A 150 foot tree with fire in it toppling over your fireline will spread the fire to the unburned side of your fireline and ...there you go...you just wasted the day putting in the fireline. Also embers launching themselves from a branch if a tree along the fireline will do the same thing on the unburned side of your line. So you want to remove any trees (live or dead) along your fireline.

Recommendations? I think everyone else has said the same thing to you that l would tell you.
Fire crews are para-military structured so if the military wasn't your thing, being in a crew won't be your cup of tea.

Good luck...
...now let me get back to the Hawaii forum...

I think you and I have very different priorities: you say Firefighter safety is most important, but I disagree.~

I say protecting the forest and making sure no one gets hurt or at least minimalize the injuries to all (including trees).~

Overmaturity?~ Are you aware that some trees healthfully and very strongly grow to be 1,000's of years old?~ Among them are Redwoods and Sequoias.~

Protecting these kinds of trees and the surrounding forest including the safety of all (Humans, non-Human animals, and plants alike) would be the purpose I think of all firefighting done in wilderness areas.~

I'm sorry, but protecting all life regardless of what it is and not putting 1 life above another is my way of life.~

[ColorsWolf]

Does any one else have any knowledge on this?

This is a real concern of mine.~

Why do forest firefighters carry axes?~

How often do they use those axes?~

Are they needlessly and without restriction chopping down what ever tree they choose?~

Is there a job that only protects the wilderness and never cuts down nor kills any thing?~

I'm talking about mainly Wilderness Restoration such as planting native plants and caring for sick trees as opposed to chopping them down.~

[RDH35]

Do you know how to google? I mean it's a really useful website. It could answer all of those questions pretty easily.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by ColorsWolf

Does any one else have any knowledge on this?

This is a real concern of mine.~

Why do forest firefighters carry axes?~

How often do they use those axes?~

Are they needlessly and without restriction chopping down what ever tree they choose?~

Is there a job that only protects the wilderness and never cuts down nor kills any thing?~

I'm talking about mainly Wilderness Restoration such as planting native plants and caring for sick trees as opposed to chopping them down.~

Cut wood

Often

Needlessly? No, there is need

Eh, not really, because you can't protect natural habitats without killing plants. The closest you'll come is an office job where you work in development and raise money for conservation projects with groups such as the American Wilderness Coalition, Pew Charitable Trust initiatives, The Wilderness Society, etc.

You're throwing out the term wilderness but I'm not sure you know what it means legally in the U.S. The lands receive minimal management, if any. Read the U.S. Wilderness Act for the definition of wilderness.

Again, I'm sorry, but you're statements show a lack of a biological understanding of ecosystems and ecosystem dynamics, as well conservation tools, and terminologies used.

And quite frankly, unless you go the development route, or perhaps find a Americorp position doing some reforestation (which in fact will include killing of plants too) you will not find a job that fits your fringe perspectives.

[ColorsWolf]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Cut wood

Often

Needlessly? No, there is need

Eh, not really, because you can't protect natural habitats without killing plants. The closest you'll come is an office job where you work in development and raise money for conservation projects with groups such as the American Wilderness Coalition, Pew Charitable Trust initiatives, The Wilderness Society, etc.

You're throwing out the term wilderness but I'm not sure you know what it means legally in the U.S. The lands receive minimal management, if any. Read the U.S. Wilderness Act for the definition of wilderness.

Again, I'm sorry, but you're statements show a lack of a biological understanding of ecosystems and ecosystem dynamics, as well conservation tools, and terminologies used.

And quite frankly, unless you go the development route, or perhaps find a Americorp position doing some reforestation (which in fact will include killing of plants too) you will not find a job that fits your fringe perspectives.

I know death is inevitable in nature, I love the idea of growing plants, caring for sick plants, re-introducing native animals back into the area, etc., but not actually chopping down living trees myself nor shooting at animals unless they are attacking a Human or myself at that very moment and even then I would probably just try to scare them off and not kill them.~

Actually Wilderness Restoration Specialist is a real job that does exactly what I just described earlier.~

http://www.greencareersguide.com/Wil...Dream-Job.html

I disagree with your assumptions about myself.~

Please give me an example of a hypothetical situation that you think might apply to me if I were to get involved in such projects.~

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by ColorsWolf

Please give me an example of a hypothetical situation that you think might apply to me if I were to get involved in such projects.~

This isn't hypothetical, happens all the time. Working on endangered species restoration, lets say a dry prairie species along the Mississippi. Habitat shrinking due to encroachment of woody growth. They're numbers are declining, lets say a blue racer or timber rattlesnake... or a species of Lep...

Land comes into public ownership or is preserved and now what? Just let things grow in?

No, stewardship... cut the red cedar and honeysuckle coming in... treat the invasives mechanically and chemically (sometimes)... and burn regularly. Would you not cut and burn?

Fine, let the woody plants cover the prairies and the endangered species lose their habitat, as do the prairie species that exist along with it, and they continue their decline.

Most environmental conservation includes stewardship that involves killing some species to benefit others. Ecosystems are dynamic. Lots of systems are disturbance dependent and we have to mimic the natural processes that created or maintained the disturbance to maintain the species of plants and animals that depend on them.

You know, if you have all the answers... then go right ahead. If you want to become whatever you posted, go right ahead (I know they exist, they're almost all Americorp people now and seasonals, which I mentioned earlier). Not my business what you do, I work in the field and I'm ecstatic to do so. If you're going to ask people's advice and then reject the advice because you don't like it or you know better you'll get absolutely no where in the field. Being humble, especially as a 20 something recent grad (or not even) when you're dealing with people that are hiring goes a lot further than having an attitude that you know what you will and won't do and your way is the right way. Those people are a dime a dozen and don't get hired.

Best of luck.

[ColorsWolf]

Originally Posted by timberline742

This isn't hypothetical, happens all the time. Working on endangered species restoration, lets say a dry prairie species along the Mississippi. Habitat shrinking due to encroachment of woody growth. They're numbers are declining, lets say a blue racer or timber rattlesnake... or a species of Lep...

Land comes into public ownership or is preserved and now what? Just let things grow in?

No, stewardship... cut the red cedar and honeysuckle coming in... treat the invasives mechanically and chemically (sometimes)... and burn regularly. Would you not cut and burn?

Fine, let the woody plants cover the prairies and the endangered species lose their habitat, as do the prairie species that exist along with it, and they continue their decline.

Most environmental conservation includes stewardship that involves killing some species to benefit others. Ecosystems are dynamic. Lots of systems are disturbance dependent and we have to mimic the natural processes that created or maintained the disturbance to maintain the species of plants and animals that depend on them.

You know, if you have all the answers... then go right ahead. If you want to become whatever you posted, go right ahead (I know they exist, they're almost all Americorp people now and seasonals, which I mentioned earlier). Not my business what you do, I work in the field and I'm ecstatic to do so. If you're going to ask people's advice and then reject the advice because you don't like it or you know better you'll get absolutely no where in the field. Being humble, especially as a 20 something recent grad (or not even) when you're dealing with people that are hiring goes a lot further than having an attitude that you know what you will and won't do and your way is the right way. Those people are a dime a dozen and don't get hired.

Best of luck.

Thanks, I just put in an application with the AmeriCorps.~

You're right, that's a tough one.~

Hopefully I can help out, earn a living, and meet my goals of mostly or non violence in the future.~

I'll give it a try.~

Thanks for all of your advice!~ ^_^

[merced mullet]

timberline742,

Thanks for your very well written answers to ColorsWolf. You were very patient answering his comments.
I, on the other hand, spent 33 years trying to respond to those types of questions, both informally (public meetings, environmental talks, etc.) and formally (lawsuits, appeals, depositions, etc) and quite frankly I got so tired of it I turned in my Biltmore Stick and clinometer in 2013.
I still maintain my wildland fire quals though (Division/Group, Incident Commander, etc) but pretty much filed away my Silvicultural Certification.
The next group of professional resource managers whether they be foresters, wildlife biologists, hydrologists, or "fish finders" would be wise to build upon what we in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s figured out and not re-invent the wheel.
I spent some time in coastal Mississipi and found managing timber there more complex than out West.
Can you say "woodpecker?"

[bornincali]

Y'all are all an incredibly nice lot!

It has been hashed out quite a bit in the thread but OP's views on wildlife/preservation in general are unrealistic and reflect today's age of youth with knowledge about but not actual exposure to wildlife and natural resource management...which explains success of animal rights movements, anti-hunting/fish/collecting and actually experiencing nature lobby, and various uneducated knee-jerk activist reactions to sound resource management etc. etc.

I suppose it is ok(but rather irrational) to not want to directly harm anything but you need to be properly insensitive to survive in this field.

Maybe I am slightly annoyed by all the folk who thought they wanted to be biologists because they thought animals were cute and adorable. Don't get me wrong, we are all just as enamored with the animals as anyone else, but in my limited experience people who are really mushy are just not cut out for this sort of stuff.