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Hmmm...
Its all relative.
There are those who will argue their college degree got them their j-o-b.They probably have a specialized degree in a specialized field. Paper worth gold.
There are those who will argue a college degree didn't help them get their j-o-b. They probably have a generalized degree, i.e. a worthless piece of paper.
Then there are those who: got by and made millions without even a HS diploma, or who were of wealthy parents {who donated to a college or university} and their kid got in "regardless of qualifications, "because, gee, we got a new science/tech building out of the deal".
Those WITH college degree often have a hard time getting a job in a down economy, who needed more wall street bankers after the crash? NO one, Accountants at high level firms? same deal. Try getting a job waiting tables at Applebee's then when it is the only thing out there available.
We both have 'some college' {if mine all fit into one 'category'{of degree requirements}, I'd have at least a 2 year degree, as I have enough credits and a solid 3.78 GPA.} MY spouse has some college level certificated courses of study and 'some college' also. Had it been a full degree for either of us, we would have been out in the streets at the crash in '08 when many jobs ended. Instead I kept my position, and MOH {My Other Half} went on to a new position with benefits {well above the min wage service industry} in a more specialized field due largely to age/experience while others floundered on 'un-enjoy-ment'. Had MOH had a degree in History, for example, it would have meant nothing and "held MOH back". MOH WAS going to go back and finish college in nursing, but then this job in the health field came up and pays, as I stated, well above the minimum wages.
We: own our home {paid for}, own a '14 and a '06 {paid for} vehicles, have retirement and savings, are able to pay our bills, save some, and still go on a major vacation every 5 years or so {Disney World, Hawaii, Cruise, etc}.
We don't think we are so bad off. All without a college degree. Sure, MOH works two jobs to get 40 hours{primary health job is only "full time" at 30+ hours a week}, and my income is part time, too, but that is fine for now. IT WORKS for us. Just think, if we could find, and we were both, full time! Major vacation every year then! Whoo HOO!
College degrees may get you the job but the people that actually perform the job are people who have experience. Which is why you will need a degree from a very prestigious college to get a manager job to manage people because you ain't gonna cut it against people who more experience and no degree.
This is why most college degrees are garbage unless its from a prestigious place.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,957,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r
We're trying to replicate how Europe is setup and that's not how America was founded and setup where there the privileged will always stay ahead of others and very little chance for someone without the opportunities to ever make it big because the whole society there is setup as a ladder game. There is no entrepreneurship spirit and everyone must conform.
Elitist mindset.
Europe has a much higher level of social mobility than the U.S. The U.S. ranks pretty low in social mobility.
You are far more likely to be able to move up (or down) in class in Europe than the U.S. This is well documented by the PEW charitable trusts social mobility project (as well as other resources).
Hmmm...
Its all relative.
There are those who will argue their college degree got them their j-o-b.They probably have a specialized degree in a specialized field. Paper worth gold.
There are those who will argue a college degree didn't help them get their j-o-b. They probably have a generalized degree, i.e. a worthless piece of paper.
Then there are those who: got by and made millions without even a HS diploma, or who were of wealthy parents {who donated to a college or university} and their kid got in "regardless of qualifications, "because, gee, we got a new science/tech building out of the deal".
Those WITH college degree often have a hard time getting a job in a down economy, who needed more wall street bankers after the crash? NO one, Accountants at high level firms? same deal. Try getting a job waiting tables at Applebee's then when it is the only thing out there available.
We both have 'some college' {if mine all fit into one 'category'{of degree requirements}, I'd have at least a 2 year degree, as I have enough credits and a solid 3.78 GPA.} MY spouse has some college level certificated courses of study and 'some college' also. Had it been a full degree for either of us, we would have been out in the streets at the crash in '08 when many jobs ended. Instead I kept my position, and MOH {My Other Half} went on to a new position with benefits {well above the min wage service industry} in a more specialized field due largely to age/experience while others floundered on 'un-enjoy-ment'. Had MOH had a degree in History, for example, it would have meant nothing and "held MOH back". MOH WAS going to go back and finish college in nursing, but then this job in the health field came up and pays, as I stated, well above the minimum wages.
We: own our home {paid for}, own a '14 and a '06 {paid for} vehicles, have retirement and savings, are able to pay our bills, save some, and still go on a major vacation every 5 years or so {Disney World, Hawaii, Cruise, etc}.
We don't think we are so bad off. All without a college degree. Sure, MOH works two jobs to get 40 hours{primary health job is only "full time" at 30+ hours a week}, and my income is part time, too, but that is fine for now. IT WORKS for us. Just think, if we could find, and we were both, full time! Major vacation every year then! Whoo HOO!
Good for you! Sadly, n=1 in this case. Your individual circumstances don't necessarily apply to the masses.
Are there too many useless degrees out there? Yes.
Are there still plenty of useful degrees out there for which a good entry-level job is available for someone who acquires it? Yes.
Is college for everyone? Unequivically no.
There is certainly a skills gap that is not being filled, and a lot of it has to do with antiquated policy, marketing, misallocated funding, lack of education (ironically), and a culture that is not doing a good enough job of instilling in all its citizens the importance of true education. So many assume they are doomed to failure so give up in advance, or go through the motions to fit into society's expectations of going to college because "that's what you have to do to succeed". There is little guidance along the way and the employers who ultimately hold the cards aren't helping much, either. It's a no-win situation.
Solutions?
1. How about providing more incentives to employers to provide on-the-job training for new-hires?
2. More money to encourage entrepreneurship (I'm sure a hundred billion or so could be taken from bloated defense funding for this).
3. A serious re-think of the purpose of education in general thus focusing more attention on training students from middle-school onward in actual useful, practical skills based on individual student aptitude and interests. Is common-core and "new math" really helping most kids succeed at learning applicable, real life skills?
I'm sure there are many more possibilities that could be come up with. It's obvious the current system is not working and is not setting up a large number of potential employees or entrepreneurs for success.
College degrees may get you the job but the people that actually perform the job are people who have experience. Which is why you will need a degree from a very prestigious college to get a manager job to manage people because you ain't gonna cut it against people who more experience and no degree.
This is why most college degrees are garbage unless its from a prestigious place.
I can't speak so much about the employment rate (in their field) of graduates of prestigious schools vs. public state schools, but it's part of that viscious cycle; if you don't have the amount of experience they're looking for, you just won't get the job, even if you can perform all of the job's duties very well and have related experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShampooBanana
How about providing more incentives to employers to provide on-the-job training for new-hires?
Yes! I graduated college after the economy had already collapsed, so I'm not sure how it was before then, but I used to be under the assumption that a company would gladly train someone who got hired in an entry-level position, who has the intelligence and drive, and some background, to do the job! But, like my oft-used example, when you're asking secretary candidates to have 5 years of experience... The people straight out of college (with certain degrees) almost have no chance, unless they know someone who can get their foot in the door.
I graduated in 2008 and there were no jobs to be had. I couldn't get a job for 2 years. I was making $8 and went to grad school to try and make a better life for myself.
How many people also just couldn't get a job (at all), and/or eventually did but were making minimum wage? The longer you stay in a field, the harder it is to get out of it. If you're still cashiering after going to college, even though you majored in XYZ, why would companies who specialize in XYZ want to hire you, when so many other people have more experience in that field? That's one of the hardest things I've had to deal with in my job search. Even though I have yet to finish grad school, I completed over a dozen classes successfully and had two internships, after having already worked in my field (sort of), so I hold onto that hope.
I'd recommend volunteering to anyone, though (my field is non-profits/social work, though, so that's already my field) or doing some kind of internship so at least you can gain some experience in your field.
College degrees may get you the job but the people that actually perform the job are people who have experience. Which is why you will need a degree from a very prestigious college to get a manager job to manage people because you ain't gonna cut it against people who more experience and no degree.
This is why most college degrees are garbage unless its from a prestigious place.
Right. All managers have college degrees from prestigious colleges. Otherwise, they couldn't be managers.
Good for you! Sadly, n=1 in this case. Your individual circumstances don't necessarily apply to the masses.***
Solutions?
1. How about providing more incentives to employers to provide on-the-job training for new-hires?
2. More money to encourage entrepreneurship (I'm sure a hundred billion or so could be taken from bloated defense funding for this).
3. A serious re-think of the purpose of education in general thus focusing more attention on training students from middle-school onward in actual useful, practical skills based on individual student aptitude and interests. Is common-core and "new math" really helping most kids succeed at learning applicable, real life skills?
I'm sure there are many more possibilities that could be come up with. It's obvious the current system is not working and is not setting up a large number of potential employees or entrepreneurs for success.
*** point is it CAN. With no "{formal} college degree" we do ok for ourselves as a family. I contend everyone can too. "some college" can be just as bad as No college. OR it can be almost as good as a "garbage college degree"- not qualifying anyone for anything, but having it. Depends on how it is looked at. Granted, I have worked more than one job most of my life, focusing my time and energy on something worthwhile for me. But Most anybody can acomplish a few things in life if they just work at it.
Sure I worked two jobs while I was young, I was a real "go getter" and a "can do" kind of guy. In fact I worked two full time jobs and went to college full time for one year and came out with 3 As and a B on 12 Credit hours of courses each semester. It was exhausting, and so college was what went first. BUT: I didn't sit around a dorm room "drinking/partying my way through" college. I had little student loan debt to pay off, not "more than a year or two of expected annual earnings" {or half that or one quarter that for one year} like many are graduating with now! I worked my butt off. Anyone can do it. Any young person, maybe. {I couldn't do more than a part or full time job and a full semester now in my 50s, though}. If one works for something, one can achieve their goals. Sure I don't have a million$$ to my name, yet, but the half mil $ is just fine for my lifestyle and support. I don't need a yacht when a canoe will do to get me to the other side of the river!.
Once upon a time, just 100 years ago, education was only to the 8th grade level if one was lucky to get past the 6th grade. Then one could go on to the HS, often if one paid for it, too. It gave one a "better education" over those with a 4th or 6h grade education. College was something else entirely, only for the wealthy who could afford it. NOW, HS is a "freely given right" as a "great equalizer" and is REQUIRED pretty much for everything BECAUSE it is freely given. To quit HS now is rediculous, but masses seem to do it and are lucky to get a GED later! NOW, it seems it should include at least junior college to the 2 year degree part. And if President Obama has his way, it will become that. Free education though "grades 13 and 14"!! Will it HELP people? maybe not, like HS may not help much now. It just becomes another basic job requirement because it is FREE.
#3}I agree with you, though, more basic education is needed in some very basic "life/business/working skills" from at least 9th on, if not starting at your middle school ideal.
~Basic skills like: how to really manage money, manage a checking/savings account {last I knew one only had some of that if one took HS accounting or business management classes}.
~How to save for the future, basic investment directives/alternatives/issues. Present value/future value.
~Like basic maths kills for employment {it never ceases to amaze me how often a cashier has no idea how to make change if the register doesn't tell them what to give back. One grocery store's system here actually SHOWED pictures of the bills and coins and had numbers by the pictures on its screen to direct cashiers on what to give back!!! Talk about "dumbing down America"!!}. I don't mean the complicated formulas Nasa type Geo-Astral-physicists {do they have them?} may use, but common math and formulas like A-B=C! OR the profit percentages over costs ideals. Or the basics of accounting methods to arrive at profit/loss statements. One needn't be an a vocational accountant, but a few basic principles are needed for anyone in the working world.
~like report writing and group teamworking/workshopping skills.
~even public speaking and human communications at all levels {reading, writing, speaking-oral and aural}.
I am never surprised to hear a junior college prof say something like "kids today are not prepared for college, they are only prepared for grade 13". And many end up in remedial 090 courses to "catch up" or "to get what they didn't in HS".
~and so forth.
The article linked to in the first post pretty well sums it up:
Quote:
Of course, you can’t become successful just by dropping out of college. But you can’t become successful just by going to college, either, or by following any formula.
Having a college degree will open up a hell of a lot of internships and entry level jobs that are entirely inaccessible to someone without a college degree, and those should serve as stepping stones at the beginning of a career. Ultimately no matter what someone decides to do they need to always keep learning, from whatever sources they have available to them.
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