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The kids I see getting masters degrees are mostly those from middle/upper-middle class (and higher) families. These kids likely had little if any debt coming out of undergrad and only take on debt for their post-graduate degree.
Those of us from working class or poorer families may end up getting a master's but usually not right away. We tend to go for the $40-50k right out of college because that's good money for us and our parents can't really help us financially...even if they wanted to help. Personally, I think that path might actually be better. Get your bachelor's, figure out the career path you want to take and then go for the graduate degree if you think it can help you. Outside of certain STEM jobs, most people are going to make in the $40-$60k range coming out of school but a lot of people want to make $100k and live the middle/upper-middle class lifestyle that their parents provided.
People stay in school because there is quite frankly nothing to graduate to now other than lousy, greedy companies severely understaffed and mis-managed who pay well below market wage or just McJobs in which you shouldn't even need a degree for. What's the rush to graduate to that?
You may as well enjoy your time in college because it's a nightmare out there once you graduate and get into the "real world"
I think a larger problem is "students" and "future employees of anybody" don't have a clue to what is needed in the real world. Not blaming just the "students" but it seems to me "hiring managers", whatever the hell that means, and others don't have a clue either.
I don't want to pick a fight, if you like social studies I am all happy for you and all, but what if I put an ad in the paper for someone with a four year degree in sociology starting at $45,000 and full benefits I wonder if I would attract someone?
Education: High School Diploma is required. College degree would be a plus, but is not necessary.
Job Type: Full-time
Salary: $65,000.00 to $85,000.00 /year"
That is what I do and being a senior design technician I can assure you that help wanted ad is a real one and so is the salary range.
I can also assure the college means squat. We don't care and when I see we I am talking for the entire industry. Problem in Texas is there are a total of 286 people in the state that holds the minimum qualification to hold a "TX RME-G License". To an employer in Texas that is the ONLY thing that matters and "hiring managers" that know what they are doing know that as well.
Medical, 401k, Flextime, Family Oriented Environment,
Job Type: Full-time
Salary: $85,000 - $105, 000 per year
Of course that is going to be higher wages because it is a high cost of living area but oh well.
Thing is neither of these jobs require a college degree but they absolutely require a huge amount of training (5 years minimum), hands on experience and some rigorous written testing. What kind of testing? Part of it was math and just to give you a flavor for the senior level testing they gave a couple problems to solve involving the Hardy Cross method which is an iterative method for determining the flow in pipe network systems where the inputs and outputs are known, but the flow inside the network is unknown. I admit, that was not easy and I had to take about 60 hours of one on one tutoring and all I wanted was to solve the problem. It was the toughest testing I ever did and I barely made it.
It seems to me everyone gets tunnel vision with the idea that the only way, that there aren't any alternatives, to success is college or the best you can be is an auto body mechanic or maybe a HVAC tech.
People think this because they are not aware of the other paths to life success. It is like they have tunnel vision and just because maybe college is not in the mix they wonder how it could possibly be successful but it is.
I know some field techs who earn in excess of six figures and as far as education goes they have high school but they certainly are not doomed to a life of failure.
There are other fields as well... think of dirt, asphalt and concrete.
Working Title Inspector Senior Construction (Williamsburg)
Role Title Engineering Technician III - 39073
Job Open Date 08/23/2017 Hiring Range $49,179 - $80,000
Agency Dept of Transportation (501)
They are going to have a tough time filling that job with that low of a salary but it is a state job.
These jobs do not require education but they definitely require experience, training and certification.
My feeling is I can think of a dozen different fields that most readers of this forum don't even know exists and if it weren't for me here most of you would never know they exist.
In these types of fields obtaining the certifications required doesn't come quick (most are five years then you take your test) and if you think the tests are Micky Mouse you would be in for the rudest awakening on planet earth.
I am not knocking college, I sometimes wish I had a degree just so I could say I had one, but people need to know there are other roads besides college that lead one to success in life. You just got to do two things; first is know the road even exists and the second is to have the guts, courage and fortitude to STICK WITH IT and get it. It is not easy.
Granted there are some jobs that I think are so highly specialized that "training from the ground up" would be impractical- so I can understand the struggle of employers looking to fill that type of work.
However if you have been job searching recently it seems like most employers tend to treat a great Majority jobs as "we can't do training from the ground up, it's to technical, time consuming, impractical, we have to hold out for someone experienced". So even the basic data entry, customer service, Payroll clerk, Accounting clerk etc... jobs that can be done with on the job training (not requiring years of experience or a certain degree) are struggling to find employees.
So for instance your older cousin who graduated in 2000 with a non related Accounting or Finance degree is able to land an Accounting clerk job, yet when you apply for an Accounting clerk job in 2008 with your non related Accounting degree you can't land the job. Suddenly the Accounting clerk opening strongly prefers an Accounting degree and or years of experience. That on the job training that your cousin received in back in 2000, well now that training is almost nonexistent, you better be familiar before you come in.
Again yes there are jobs that employers have to hold out for i.e... purple squirrel. But more there are jobs that can be done with simple on the job training but for whatever reason Employers are reluctant to provide that. So in the end of course you get " U.S. Employers Struggle To Match Workers With Open Jobs ".
Lots of companies use to train people, like for those sprinkler design positions as an example, now they just want people ready to go. Well, that isn't going to work long term. Only a matter of time before the number of people ready to go isn't enough. Now all the companies are doing is fighting over the same people with ever rising wages as they continue to poach from each other because no new employees are being added to the market. Companies need to bring back training, apprenticeships, internships etc...... In the long run it would be in their own best interest. Basically the employers are fighting the market and everybody, including the employers, would be much better off if they just did what was needed to meet the market.
Granted there are some jobs that I think are so highly specialized that "training from the ground up" would be impractical- so I can understand the struggle of employers looking to fill that type of work.
However if you have been job searching recently it seems like most employers tend to treat a great Majority jobs as "we can't do training from the ground up, it's to technical, time consuming, impractical, we have to hold out for someone experienced". So even the basic data entry, customer service, Payroll clerk, Accounting clerk etc... jobs that can be done with on the job training (not requiring years of experience or a certain degree) are struggling to find employees.
So for instance your older cousin who graduated in 2000 with a non related Accounting or Finance degree is able to land an Accounting clerk job, yet when you apply for an Accounting clerk job in 2008 with your non related Accounting degree you can't land the job. Suddenly the Accounting clerk opening strongly prefers an Accounting degree and or years of experience. That on the job training that your cousin received in back in 2000, well now that training is almost nonexistent, you better be familiar before you come in.
Again yes there are jobs that employers have to hold out for i.e... purple squirrel. But more there are jobs that can be done with simple on the job training but for whatever reason Employers are reluctant to provide that. So in the end of course you get " U.S. Employers Struggle To Match Workers With Open Jobs ".
At 69 I am likely one of the older people who visit this particular forum and I have witnessed many changes over my 50 plus years in the work force.
When I started it seemed there was more loyalty that employers had towards their employees and employees had toward their employers. When I started in the field I am in I figured I would stay at the same employer for... well... the rest of my life. I had a good retirement system, full benefits and an employer that I believe truly cared about my well being.
Today that is all gone... vanished. Seems an employee will screw over an employer in a heartbeat but the same holds true for the employer who will screw over an employee.
Loyalty, and I do not know the reason why this is so, is dead. Not what it used to be.
What I do there are no replacements coming up and that is why, even at 69, if I lost a job today I could find another in a day or two. The only way you find someone today is to poach from another company which is why salaries are going through the roof with six figures not all that uncommon in parts of the country today. I can't retire because there's nobody to replace me so it is off to work I go. What we worked out is I work 12 days straight Monday through a week from the following Friday and then take 17 days off spanning three weekends then it is back to work again. Kind of like a two week paid vacation every month but I do work that weekend between the two weeks I work. When I work it ain't eight hour days either.
For now it works for me.
I would like to see OJT come back like it used to. Fifty years ago few people had a college degree and it didn't hold the importance back then that it seems to today for even the most menial type jobs.
It seems to me some employers are creating employees that have reason to hate them. I wouldn't think much of an employer that required me to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a degree I really wouldn't need. If he paid me $14 an hour, which ain't crap, I would begin to resent and from there I would want to get even. Employers that go this route are stupid.
I have always found if you pay an employee more than they are worth they will strive to be better. Look at it as in investment in the future.
If I wanted to hire someone to train I wouldn't even ask about college because to me, in my field, it holds little value. What I would want is someone who is above average in smarts and driven to succeed. I want him to know some trigonometry and high school algebra II would be nice. We could talk about that.
I would really hate to be 18 in today's screwed up world.
People need to realize that when they pay below $12 they're gonna have tons of turnover. I had an $8 job once my sophomore year. One day I realized it was not worth busting my ass for $8 an hour since that also cut into my studying time, so I just stopped showing up. I bet all these industries that pay their employees near minimum-wage get that a lot. Working for $8 an hour especially in a place like New York is a waste of time and you're better off putting that effort into finding a better paying job
Lots of companies use to train people, like for those sprinkler design positions as an example, now they just want people ready to go. Well, that isn't going to work long term. Only a matter of time before the number of people ready to go isn't enough. Now all the companies are doing is fighting over the same people with ever rising wages as they continue to poach from each other because no new employees are being added to the market. Companies need to bring back training, apprenticeships, internships etc...... In the long run it would be in their own best interest. Basically the employers are fighting the market and everybody, including the employers, would be much better off if they just did what was needed to meet the market.
Sure the big corps could afford apprenticeship programs and such. It's worse for smaller shops and I know this from my experience working in them. They can only afford to pay so much, and training someone is taking a loss when the margins are already so thin. And if they do get someone they either leave, decide they do not want to do the work anymore, or are not capable of learning how to do the work.
At 69 I am likely one of the older people who visit this particular forum and I have witnessed many changes over my 50 plus years in the work force.
When I started it seemed there was more loyalty that employers had towards their employees and employees had toward their employers. When I started in the field I am in I figured I would stay at the same employer for... well... the rest of my life. I had a good retirement system, full benefits and an employer that I believe truly cared about my well being.
Today that is all gone... vanished. Seems an employee will screw over an employer in a heartbeat but the same holds true for the employer who will screw over an employee.
Loyalty, and I do not know the reason why this is so, is dead. Not what it used to be.
What I do there are no replacements coming up and that is why, even at 69, if I lost a job today I could find another in a day or two. The only way you find someone today is to poach from another company which is why salaries are going through the roof with six figures not all that uncommon in parts of the country today. I can't retire because there's nobody to replace me so it is off to work I go. What we worked out is I work 12 days straight Monday through a week from the following Friday and then take 17 days off spanning three weekends then it is back to work again. Kind of like a two week paid vacation every month but I do work that weekend between the two weeks I work. When I work it ain't eight hour days either.
For now it works for me.
I would like to see OJT come back like it used to. Fifty years ago few people had a college degree and it didn't hold the importance back then that it seems to today for even the most menial type jobs.
It seems to me some employers are creating employees that have reason to hate them. I wouldn't think much of an employer that required me to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a degree I really wouldn't need. If he paid me $14 an hour, which ain't crap, I would begin to resent and from there I would want to get even. Employers that go this route are stupid.
I have always found if you pay an employee more than they are worth they will strive to be better. Look at it as in investment in the future.
If I wanted to hire someone to train I wouldn't even ask about college because to me, in my field, it holds little value. What I would want is someone who is above average in smarts and driven to succeed. I want him to know some trigonometry and high school algebra II would be nice. We could talk about that.
I would really hate to be 18 in today's screwed up world.
Very interesting and yes loyalty, gold watch etc... seems to be a relic. You are more or less expected to change companies every few years.
Funny enough 14$, specifically 10-14$ an hour seems to be the going rate of the bottom of the barrel, data entry office type work. Which is fine, its more than minimum wage and we all have to start from the bottom. Ideally you start at the base of the totem pole and work your way up. The problem is, at least where I worked, is you are not likely going to climb out of that bottom unless you went back to school to get a degree in X. But don't have that degree in X then you are either stuck at that 14$ an hour or you look for another job elsewhere.
Granted there are some jobs that I think are so highly specialized that "training from the ground up" would be impractical- so I can understand the struggle of employers looking to fill that type of work.
However if you have been job searching recently it seems like most employers tend to treat a great Majority jobs as "we can't do training from the ground up, it's to technical, time consuming, impractical, we have to hold out for someone experienced". So even the basic data entry, customer service, Payroll clerk, Accounting clerk etc... jobs that can be done with on the job training (not requiring years of experience or a certain degree) are struggling to find employees.
So for instance your older cousin who graduated in 2000 with a non related Accounting or Finance degree is able to land an Accounting clerk job, yet when you apply for an Accounting clerk job in 2008 with your non related Accounting degree you can't land the job. Suddenly the Accounting clerk opening strongly prefers an Accounting degree and or years of experience. That on the job training that your cousin received in back in 2000, well now that training is almost nonexistent, you better be familiar before you come in.
Again yes there are jobs that employers have to hold out for i.e... purple squirrel. But more there are jobs that can be done with simple on the job training but for whatever reason Employers are reluctant to provide that. So in the end of course you get " U.S. Employers Struggle To Match Workers With Open Jobs ".
Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head. Everyone says kids are naive for going into school for X, but it is nearly impossible to predict what will be needed some 5 years ahead of time when you are actually applying for college. Everyone is pushing STEM now, but what happens 4-5 years down the road when there are tons of STEM graduates and not enough jobs to go around? In some STEM fields, jobs are limited as it is. There are not many jobs out there for science undergrads, for example. Certain types of engineers are also more likely to be affected by fluctuations in the economy.
I have a friend who easily got a job in a pharmaceutical company back in the late '90s with just a bachelor's degree in science. I had another friend who is the same age and had a similar experience. They ended up getting stuck because there weren't many other jobs out there now that were available if you didn't have a PhD and a CV you could submit. However, the skills needed for jobs really haven't changed that much. If they are holding out for people with a PhD+CV when they used to hire people at much lower wages with a bachelor's or master's degree, then of course it is going to be harder to find someone. The pool of people with a PhD+CV is just not very large.
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