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I know lawyers get a bad rap, but that's probably from people who've got something nefarious going on. If you get a good one, and there are many, what you'll find is someone who is brilliant at critical, logical and moral thinking. Just to get into a good law school requires incredible intelligence, and going through law school itself is a 24/7 hazing ritual that would exhaust a marathon runner.
Remember, arguing is a logical art, the ability to hold two opposing views in your mind at the same time, and be able to present each point convincingly. To practice law, you have to memorize and know in your bones, ALL the elements, then be able to apply them to the facts of the case at hand. I assure you, this is no mean feat.
Personally, I like lawyers, as people, and as defenders of my situation in court. Of course there are "bad" ones. So, do your homework, and ask around for the info on the best law firms. After all, they really do work as a team. And, more surprising, the opposing lawyer will often be a friendly colleague of your attorney...it's a very closed system actually. So work it.
3 times I hired an attorney and every time I was told how they would get what I wanted it went the other way I lost. I find attorney's are more salesmen getting clients then really care about their client.
I am an attorney. I try to give clients a pretty good idea of what will really happen in their matters. Bankruptcy happens to be my specialty.
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Originally Posted by kell490
I guess so much competitions they say anything to get you on retainer.
Obviously without naming names that's true of many of my competitors.
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Originally Posted by kell490
I once hired a BK attorney in a large ch 11 where I was a creditor my own attorney got thrown out of court by the judge because he didn't even process his claim correctly the motion he filed was correct another attorney stole the idea and filed it for his client. I ended up not getting my money back (BK usually professionals get paid first with a claim). Everyone else attorney's got paid not mine he was an idiot. It was almost like he had never been in a court room the judge laughed at him as they read off all these rules he didn't follow.
His client may have had very different facts from you. I wouldn't be surprised if your attorney used documents previously written for someone like the other attorney's clients. Let me explain.
In almost all bankruptcy courts and other federal courts (and increasingly in state courts) documents are electronically filed. For example I practice mostly in the Unites States Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York (link to SDNY e-filing site) and Eastern District of New York (link to EDNY e-filing site). On a large matter I can usually find lots of motions. I can copy the paperwork for any one of them without breaking any rules, and adapt them to my matter. The devil is in the details of picking the right one to adapt and doing so appropriately. Deadlines are also key. If your attorney missed the deadline the Judge will often laugh at him or her.
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Originally Posted by kell490
Later I found he worked for a big firm the year before as a JR attorney was not very good they let him go he opened his own practice mostly personal BK's had no experience with larger business BK.
Not a surprise. The big firms often do a lousy job at training. They may or may not do well if they are there long enough to pick up what their grizzled elders are doing.
In my case, I started practicing in January 1983 (admitted February 1983) with a five-lawyer firm which itself wasn't very good. I learned more when in January 1984 I switched to a solo practitioner, ironically the brother of one of the partners and a son of another, but they didn't get along at all. Next was a 10 lawyer firm I worked for briefly in 1985-6. The senior partner was convicted in 2013 of filching over $800,000 from an escrow account. About them the less said the better.
In June 1986 I started working for a solo practitioner. His training of me was a baptism by fire. In September 1986 he called from the courthouse from a payphone, in the days when those existed and he asked me to bring him a case file. I arrived about 20 minutes later and instead of taking the files he pointed to the podium, and told me to start arguing. While we didn't win, the judge wrote a 12 page scholarly decision defeating us. In this case we were trying to undo Mitchell Lama mortgage restrictions in order to enable the low-income coop to go upscale. In hindsight loss was likely but the training was invaluable. And before someone asks if we should have taken the matter we took it on a light retainer, knowing that if we succeeded everyone would make money.
I was with him till the end of 2014 and just rejoined him. In my opinion his training is the right way. The big-firm style, not so much. We were both at a big firm during calendar year 2014. The training given younger attorneys was risible.
If it wasn't for lawyers, the insurance companies wouldn't pay you anything. Think of how angry you get when someone wrongs you. For instance someone building over your property line or a constructive termination.
Attorneys are the sane and mature man's alternative to loading your shotgun and driving to their office.
You hit the nail on the head. Courts are classically the civilized way to resolve disputes. All truly civilized societies employ some form of neutral to resolve disputes, going back to the days Jethro advised Moses to delegate dispute-resolution to others.
Our former personal lawyer of 20 years was a friend until he was convicted of $1.6 million dollar tax evasion several years ago and sent to jail. He was a family man, a pillar of the community, and seemingly honest. We haven't had a lawyer since and don't plan on befriending any lawyers again.
I worked for a short while in a law firm. I found most of them to be extremely materialistic, full of themselves and pretty obnoxious. When I've had to hire lawyers for various reasons I found them to be money grubbing and ready to grab every penny they could get out of you. I dislike them....very much.
Some are jerks. Some are great people. Just like people in every profession.
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