People who've been given opportunities to advance and grow in their careers... (interviewed, jobs)
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You are ignoring the fact that some people DO NOT receive feedback about what they need to do in order to be a good manager. I consider myself a leader in my department. I help mentor my co-workers, I advise them on how to conduct themselves and to "slow their role" so they don't force themselves in a corner they don't want to be in. I do a lot of things that we all wish out manager would do for us, but I never get recognition for this. My co-workers have even said I'd be a better manager than the one we have.
So let's just stop with the BS nonsense of this just world fallacy where everyone is getting the same opportunities as everyone else.
I never said we lived in a just world. Far from it. We haven’t mentioned race or gender in this thread, yet both have an impact on career opportunities. So does the local and national economic environment, the industry, and simple luck.
Many of these things are beyond your control, so you work on the things that you can have control over.
...what is your philosophy on giving others that same opportunity?
The simple truth: We all started as nothing. No skills. No experience. No work history. No track record of success.
However, over time, you were given the opportunity to prove yourself. And little by little, you did it. You wrapped up one project after another, and you slowly built up your reputation as someone who could "do the job".
Perhaps you were offered the opportunity to delve into a more technical role. Or perhaps you were given the chance to manage a team.
The common theme here is that someone else provided you with the opportunity to prove your value in a role that you had no prior experience or success with.
I know we have a lot of older posters who participate on this forum. Many claim to be in management roles, others in senior tech roles. I'd be curious on what their thoughts are on giving the next generation the same opportunities they had to prove their value in a particular type of role. I observe from others, and have received first hand, plenty of push back in career advancement due to "lack of (ample) real world experience" in a particular area. The irony is that without ever being given a chance to prove yourself, you will quite literally never have real world experience that demonstrates your capabilities.
So...what are your thoughts on giving others that same opportunities you had? For or against?
In my last job I absolutely experienced this. I was given the opportunity to advance based on my reputation as a solid self-starter who could tackle just about any task given to me. As a result I earned 3 promotions in my almost 9 years there.
In my current role at my new company, I've only been here a few months but they have already mentioned the possibility of promoting me in the near future, once the position is approved by the board of directors (it's a new position title that they've never had before). Again, it's because in my 3 months here I've already shown them that I'm valuable and more than capable.
As for helping others get the same opportunity, we have someone struggling at my current company that has never been in her particular role before in her career. Rather than complain about how she is not competent, I've decided to mentor and help her grow and learn. It's what was provided to me, and seems only fair I provide that same guidance to someone else that is just starting out. If she ends up not working out here, I'm hoping that whatever I'm able to teach her will help her in her future endeavors.
In my last job I absolutely experienced this. I was given the opportunity to advance based on my reputation as a solid self-starter who could tackle just about any task given to me. As a result I earned 3 promotions in my almost 9 years there.
In my current role at my new company, I've only been here a few months but they have already mentioned the possibility of promoting me in the near future, once the position is approved by the board of directors (it's a new position title that they've never had before). Again, it's because in my 3 months here I've already shown them that I'm valuable and more than capable.
As for helping others get the same opportunity, we have someone struggling at my current company that has never been in her particular role before in her career. Rather than complain about how she is not competent, I've decided to mentor and help her grow and learn. It's what was provided to me, and seems only fair I provide that same guidance to someone else that is just starting out. If she ends up not working out here, I'm hoping that whatever I'm able to teach her will help her in her future endeavors.
Very nice! I hope that she appreciates what you're doing for her. On behalf of those people who've never worked with a manager like yourself, who is invested in the growth of their team members, thank you!
Many of these things are beyond your control, so you work on the things that you can have control over.
Like finding a new job, and hoping that whoever you wind up under, that they are invested in your development and growth. This is the BIGGEST reason why I've been such an advocate of job hopping. It is the ONLY way I've been able to increase my income and get into higher roles, on my terms.
No matter where I go, I'm a good or great performer (per the feedback I receive). However, I've never been given internal opportunities to advance, I've received minimal feedback from management on what to do better, and I've never been mentored or groomed for any sort of advancement.
I'd love to work at all of these wonderful, utopian companies where all the managers do well by their subordinates, and passionately help them reach their career goals. But it hasn't happened yet.
...what is your philosophy on giving others that same opportunity?
The simple truth: We all started as nothing. No skills. No experience. No work history. No track record of success.
However, over time, you were given the opportunity to prove yourself. And little by little, you did it. You wrapped up one project after another, and you slowly built up your reputation as someone who could "do the job".
Perhaps you were offered the opportunity to delve into a more technical role. Or perhaps you were given the chance to manage a team.
The common theme here is that someone else provided you with the opportunity to prove your value in a role that you had no prior experience or success with.
I know we have a lot of older posters who participate on this forum. Many claim to be in management roles, others in senior tech roles. I'd be curious on what their thoughts are on giving the next generation the same opportunities they had to prove their value in a particular type of role. I observe from others, and have received first hand, plenty of push back in career advancement due to "lack of (ample) real world experience" in a particular area. The irony is that without ever being given a chance to prove yourself, you will quite literally never have real world experience that demonstrates your capabilities.
So...what are your thoughts on giving others that same opportunities you had? For or against?
Yes. Part of being successful is in turn ensuring others are successful as well.
A). You keep talking about "working hard." It's not about how hard you work but what you accomplish beyond what others do. It doesn't matter if you're the hardest working ditch digger on the crew; just means more digging. What matters is can you lead others to dig? Can you organize all the aspects of getting it dug? Do you have potential? No one is going to give these to you; we are looking for someone who had the initiative to lead withou being told; someone who shows potential for higher level work by demonstrating they can.
B). You mentioned not getting feedback. This thread is full of feedback and you're arguing with it. You have probably been getting feedback all your career but the question is are you hearing it?
Last edited by tnff; 03-20-2018 at 09:15 AM..
Reason: Dropped to take a meeting.
A). You keep talking about "working hard." It's not about how hard you work but what you accomplish beyond what others do. It doesn't matter if you're the hardest working ditch digger on the crew; just means more digging. What matters is can you lead others to dig? Can you organize all the aspects of getting it dug? Do you have potential? No one is going to give these to you; we are looking for someone who had the initiative to lead withou being told; someone who shows potential for higher level work by demonstrating they can.
A). You keep talking about "working hard." It's not about how hard you work but what you accomplish beyond what others do. It doesn't matter if you're the hardest working ditch digger on the crew; just means more digging. What matters is can you lead others to dig? Can you organize all the aspects of getting it dug? Do you have potential? No one is going to give these to you; we are looking for someone who had the initiative to lead withou being told; someone who shows potential for higher level work by demonstrating they can.
To answer your first point, YES, I do believe I can succeed. I've never been given the opportunity though. Again, you're either giving this advice from your own POV as a manager who does this for his team, or from the lens of the just world fallacy, where everyone justly receives what they earn.
You need a manager who will give you that opportunity. You need a manager who will tell his peers in the organization that he believes in your capabilities. You NEED feedback from your manager one what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong. If you aren't getting that information, you don't have the data to make changes or choices. As for my career, I live in a dark room with no data points. I can't do better or work towards anything if I don't have the data to reveal how I can improve (if that is indeed the case). You're a scientist. You of all people here should understand this.
I have done ALL of these things, and it's not working. I get no feedback on what I can do better, just excuses for why the opportunity is not there. So what is your lifehack for that?
Do you realize how frustrating it is to be told you're doing a great job by all of your peers, and even your managers, but then they never push for your advancement? Do you realize how frustrating it is to spend hours of your own free time after work, exhausted, learning new skills, taking online classes, watching tutorials, practicing your skills, and all of that for nothing. No acknowledgement, no reward, NOTHING!!!
You have to be your own advocate.
I've had good bosses, okay bosses, and one terrible boss. None of these managers ever really pushed for the career development of the staff. Perhaps they just don't care. Perhaps they're overloaded. Perhaps there is no expectation in the organization for staff to grow.
I don't do all of that. If I'm genuinely interested in something from work, I might pursue it on my personal time, but I don't go into it with expectation of it helping me professionally.
I've had good bosses, okay bosses, and one terrible boss. None of these managers ever really pushed for the career development of the staff. Perhaps they just don't care. Perhaps they're overloaded. Perhaps there is no expectation in the organization for staff to grow.
I don't do all of that. If I'm genuinely interested in something from work, I might pursue it on my personal time, but I don't go into it with expectation of it helping me professionally.
Trust me, I have tried that, too. Without going around trying to humble brag to everyone I work with, I have tried to slip in here and there what I'm good at, what I want to do in my career, etc. It has not been effective at all for me. But then, I never receive any feedback on what I need to do to get those opportunities.
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Very nice! I hope that she appreciates what you're doing for her. On behalf of those people who've never worked with a manager like yourself, who is invested in the growth of their team members, thank you!
