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So the state should take no stance if I punch you in the nose? That isn’t a threat obviously, I am simply drawing another analogy, one that I think is more appropriate than your weed legalization.
I also take objection to your assertion that this is about morality. To an extent there is a sexual element, but the big issue is one of being safe. One personal right to freedom extends to the safety of their body, and here you are saying that doesn’t matter.
Let’s also be realistic here. Men are up to twice the size of women. I am a rather large guy myself, and if I wanted to grab a woman, there are very few who could physically stop me. Conversely, although a woman could sneak a grab in on me, if I wasn’t thrilled by it I could end it immediately and definitively. Women cannot do that.
Additionally, there is a power dynamic at work here. The woman’s livelihood, in terms of nightly tips, rests on this. She cannot simply and easily confront a customer without incurring a financial penalty, or maybe losing her job.
The guy was predatory, and a small penalty is appropriate. Not a year in jail, but something to punish and deter.
I fully agree, and hope the guy is scared stiff about what awaits him in court I hope the d.a. gives no indication about any possible leniency before that fateful day. Raise his blood pressure, and this perv will wise up very quickly.
Ever rode public transportation during a rush hour in just about any major US city? How about sit in an aisle seat on a commercial airplane? I can't tell you how many times I've had someone's crotch, or an ass in my face.
Of course it's about morality.
I ride every day, and its always an accident when it occurs. If not, it is a crime.
Ever rode public transportation during a rush hour in just about any major US city? How about sit in an aisle seat on a commercial airplane? I can't tell you how many times I've had someone's crotch, or an ass in my face.
Of course it's about morality.
I lived in NYC for 10 years, I know mass transit. I fly a fair bit. It happens.
The difference is one of intent. An unintentional bump, brush or invasion of personal space if very different from an intentional grab.
Yes, we could have a discussion involving the difficulties of proving intent, but let’s not. I think in this case intent was pretty clear.
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains
If i remember correctly, don’t you hold to a pretty extreme libertarian, Randian philosophy? You dislike government in virtually all aspects?
The problem with applying that philosophy to this specific incident is one of practicality. Whether you agree with it or not, we do have a system that includes rule of law. The woman’s options are constrained by this, and the law provides her with options as well.
You may wish our society was different, but as it isn’t, it seems best to me to discuss issues like this by acknowledging reality.
I didn't know promoting self-reliance and conflict resolution skills is a byproduct of an extreme libertarian, Randian philosophy? I think that says a lot about prevailing attitudes today, doesn't it?
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains
I lived in NYC for 10 years, I know mass transit. I fly a fair bit. It happens.
The difference is one of intent. An unintentional bump, brush or invasion of personal space if very different from an intentional grab.
Yes, we could have a discussion involving the difficulties of proving intent, but let’s not. I think in this case intent was pretty clear.
I'm not talking about intent. Chances are if this guy touched this woman on her shoulder, back, ankle, cops wouldn't have been called. But, because he touched her ass, it became an issue.
This isn't about a physical assault, but rather touching sensitive area in a time when it's become a huge cultural issue. Chances are 18 months ago, cops wouldn't have arrested this guy, but would have diffused the situation in a different manner. Chances are 18 months ago, cops wouldn't have been called in the first place.
This is about morality and changing cultural landscape, not forcibly touching someone.
I didn't know promoting self-reliance and conflict resolution skills is a byproduct of an extreme libertarian, Randian philosophy? I think that says a lot about prevailing attitudes today, doesn't it?
I object to your characterization, but will not take this particular digression any further away from OP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tolovefromANFIELD
I'm not talking about intent. Chances are if this guy touched this woman on her shoulder, back, ankle, cops wouldn't have been called. But, because he touched her ass, it became an issue.
This isn't about a physical assault, but rather touching sensitive area in a time when it's become a huge cultural issue. Chances are 18 months ago, cops wouldn't have arrested this guy, but would have diffused the situation in a different manner. Chances are 18 months ago, cops wouldn't have been called in the first place.
This is about morality and changing cultural landscape, not forcibly touching someone.
Yes, the body part in question is an important part of this discussion. I thought that was obvious. There are appropriate and inappropriate ways to touch other people, and once more I thought this was obvious.
If he shook her hand, or tapped her shoulder, no problem. He didn’t do that. He touched her in a widely acknowledged unwelcome way. Technically we are talking about battery, and not assault.
Yes, the cultural landscape is changing. We now generally acknowledge touching of this nature to be not only inappropriate, but also actionable. I think that this is a positive development, providing some equality of power to women.
I'm not talking about intent. Chances are if this guy touched this woman on her shoulder, back, ankle, cops wouldn't have been called. But, because he touched her ass, it became an issue.
This isn't about a physical assault, but rather touching sensitive area in a time when it's become a huge cultural issue. Chances are 18 months ago, cops wouldn't have arrested this guy, but would have diffused the situation in a different manner. Chances are 18 months ago, cops wouldn't have been called in the first place.
This is about morality and changing cultural landscape, not forcibly touching someone.
I too am happy we now take this crime seriously.
It is not a morality issue, but a violation of personal space issue.
He will just get a fine, community service, or the like, but personally I would give him 10 days in jail also.
With a 170 additional day suspended sentence to be served next offense immediately.
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
2,907 posts, read 2,069,146 times
Reputation: 4478
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains
I object to your characterization, but will not take this particular digression any further away from OP.
Yes, the body part in question is an important part of this discussion. I thought that was obvious. There are appropriate and inappropriate ways to touch other people, and once more I thought this was obvious.
If he shook her hand, or tapped her shoulder, no problem. He didn’t do that. He touched her in a widely acknowledged unwelcome way. Technically we are talking about battery, and not assault.
Yes, the cultural landscape is changing. We now generally acknowledge touching of this nature to be not only inappropriate, but also actionable. I think that this is a positive development, providing some equality of power to women.
I think I responded to you, rather than to BOB who's argument was about forcible touching.
My wife, my sister, my mom and my nieces god willing have always had and will continue to have "equality of power". Not for the reasons you think they have though, and sure as hell no state or society had to give them.
I don't think anyone is defending an ass grab, at least I'm not. What I'm ridiculing is an over the top response to something that could have been handled by this young lady, or the management.
They did handle it. He broke the law and they reported it.
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