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Hundreds of people at least think they want to work, and are willing to accept $10 an hour. Where's the problem? There's a glut of labor, of course the price goes down. What do you think should happen here?
That's the problem, that people think human labor is something to be bid on. In the politics forum I gave two logical reasons why wage labour is immoral and detrimental to the economy + how sears jobs used to resemble at least to a degree more respectful and meaningful jobs as compared to amazon. For this I was called a marxist.
Here is the argument if you are interested:
Quote:
The concept of immorality has nothing to do with being closed minded. Closed minded is somebody unwilling to consider other's ideas. I just gave a logical argument:
1. In the economy human being (produce, distribute and consume) goods and services. Only those are supposed to be bought and sold. In the same way rich people are not supposed to buy up policies for their benefits, business are not suppose to buy people's time. It is the same reason religion was taken out of the government. When something is allowed to function in an area where it doesn't belong it does a lot of harm.
2. Wage is a never ending cycle in which prices are constantly increased. People have to ever look for higher paying jobs because the price of rent, good and services keeps going up. Of course, this works very good for a certain group of people, mainly those who have easier access to capital, that is a small part of people. The rest is always left losing.
If you drew a marxist vision out of this argument, then you are just imaging something you like to argue about in order to dismiss a perfectly logical argument about labor.
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Something is not moral or immoral based on how many people agrees with it.
Someone who had read what I said without prejudice instead of projecting their hate for Marxism/communism, would have tried to find how this can be used to improve the current situation. For example:
One of my best jobs was at Sears. Most people who worked at Sears thought they were good jobs. In my case I had a base pay and the rest depended on how much work I had done. It is not exactly what I said in point 1, but similar. Most of what I got paid came from the work I did, not the time.
Now let's take an example of a job in an amazon warehouse. Like most people they are paid by the hour, if they are not fast enough they are let go. If they are injured on the job, they are discarded and in many cases with no remuneration. This is what I call a wh*** job.
In the first case the employee is a collaborator and is paid not for his time, but for what he produces. In the second example, he is not treated with the respect and dignity he deserves, but as little more than a machine. The former jobs disappears while the latter which only serve the capitalists is the norm. All of this under the premise that the purpose of the economy is to maximize profits, while missing its true purpose: serve ALL people in the society.
3 people called this a marxist utopia. Their reasoning was that since Marx wanted to eliminate wages, therefore I must believe in a centralized authority in control of everything. Their prejudice and close mindness didn't allow it to see than the elimination of wages is not only compatible with private business, but it is a necessity for the well being of people and the economy as a whole.
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Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
Who are the people that control the economic system??? Would that be congress and the Federal Reserve?
The richest 1%. They control most capital, big business and politics to a certain degree.
That's the problem, that people think human labor is something to be bid on
How many people do you employ at your business? How much do you pay them? I submit neither number is enough. You must hire more people, and you must pay them what I deem to be a "fair living wage", and when more show up looking to be hired, you cannot turn them away... they're valuable human beings with dignity and rights and needs, and they must be provided for, and you must step up and do your part!
The problem is with those who refuse to accept reality and who start to airily declare that labor is something other than a commodity subject to the laws of supply and demand. Your emotions do not change the world. Labor can only be worth the value of it's output. Nothing else is possible. Every attempt to subvert that reality has failed and left most people worse off than they were before. Every. Single. Time.
How many people do you employ at your business? How much do you pay them? I submit neither number is enough. You must hire more people, and you must pay them what I deem to be a "fair living wage", and when more show up looking to be hired, you cannot turn them away... they're valuable human beings with dignity and rights and needs, and they must be provided for, and you must step up and do your part!
The problem is with those who refuse to accept reality and who start to airily declare that labor is something other than a commodity subject to the laws of supply and demand. Your emotions do not change the world. Labor can only be worth the value of it's output. Nothing else is possible. Every attempt to subvert that reality has failed and left most people worse off than they were before. Every. Single. Time.
If this was true we wouldn't have the problems we do. No single person produces billions of dollars of output. Saying so is a distortion of reality. This is done through financial speculation, stocks, fraud, etc.
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Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
In the eyes of the world... 99% make less than 33k... if I remember the stat correctly... which leaves a lot of everyday Americans in the 1%...
If this was true we wouldn't have the problems we do. No single person produces billions of dollars of output. Saying so is a distortion of reality. This is done through financial speculation, stocks, fraud, etc.
Value is based on what someone is willing to pay you for something and/or your services. Just because a value reaches a certain level doesn’t automatically mean that it is a result of fraud, etc.
How many people do you employ at your business? How much do you pay them? I submit neither number is enough. You must hire more people, and you must pay them what I deem to be a "fair living wage", and when more show up looking to be hired, you cannot turn them away... they're valuable human beings with dignity and rights and needs, and they must be provided for, and you must step up and do your part!
The problem is with those who refuse to accept reality and who start to airily declare that labor is something other than a commodity subject to the laws of supply and demand. Your emotions do not change the world. Labor can only be worth the value of it's output. Nothing else is possible. Every attempt to subvert that reality has failed and left most people worse off than they were before. Every. Single. Time.
Had a class years ago and the teacher was explaining the principal and used the John Steinbeck classic the Grapes of Wrath depicting dirt poor migrant labor forced to wander in search of work and victims of the great Dust Bowl...
In Russia... someone had the idea this would be a good way to demonstrate just how poor and destitute the subsistence way of life is in America... so the film was shown there.
Only lasted a very brief time... the reason is because it had the total opposite effect.
The dirt poor migrant workers living in camps searching for work were moving from camp to camp in cars held together by bailing wire and a prayer... BUT, THESE DESTITUTE AMERICANS HAD CARS!... which made a lasting impression that even the poor in America ride in cars...
Value is based on what someone is willing to pay you for something and/or your services. Just because a value reaches a certain level doesn’t automatically mean that it is a result of fraud, etc.
I say: "This is done through financial speculation, stocks, fraud, etc."
1. Financial speculation. There are a lot of millionaires and even billionaires who got their fortune from speculation.
2. If you are born rich you are in a whole different level than the rest of us. All you have to do is put all the money in the stock market and money multiplies magically.
3. Fraud. Is this controversial? Don't you know there are plenty of people who get rich through fraud?
4. Etc. Definition: is used at the end of a list to indicate that you have mentioned only some of the items involved and have not given a full list.
To believe all riches come from skills and hard work is simple naive. People like to create their own fairy tales of how benevolent, altruistic people like Bill Gates is.
This is how Bill Gates made his fortune:
1. Bought MS-DOS from a programming company, sold the license to IBM.
2. Created Windows by stealing the idea from Apple, who in turn stole it from Xerox.
3. Bribed computer manufacturers, retail stores and government institutions to make sure they bought computers with his software.
4. Multiply his fortune in the pyramid scheme known as the stock market.
Pick building castles in the air, all sort of stories are purposely made to keep your blinders tightly on.
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