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Most Americans are Christians. The majority of us trace our Christian roots - like all Christian groups - back to Europe, when most Europeans were Christian. The Italians were Catholic; the Swedes were Lutheran; the British, Anglicans. Since World War II, Europe has underwent a transformation in which countries have become secularized, sometimes beyond recognition. For example, Norway and Sweden were once fairly religious when they sent the bulk of their immigrants here (in the late 19th century). Now, however, they have "moved beyond" Christianity and the "myths" of heaven and hell. In fact, most northern Europeans are not in agreement with some of the most basic dogmas of Christianity, and the same thing is increasingly becoming true (if it hasn't already) for Southern Europe. Meanwhile, most Americans still believe in an afterlife and in many of the traditional Christian beliefs that the bulk of Europeans have abandoned.
Now, that is not to say that most Christians in the U.S. are practicing bible thumpers who go to church every day. This is a common myth brought about by media coverage of that side of Christianity: New Earth Creationism, Fundamentalists, etc. The truth is that the majority of Americans attend church services on an irregular basis at best (although there is a significant group of outwardly devout Christians in the U.S., no doubt about it), but even the most "cultural" Christian in the US becomes religious when a person dies, or is in a medical crisis. The Christian who in good times never prays or goes to Mass offers re-assurance at the funeral to dead's immediate family that they are in heaven, and that God will never give them too much to bear, or when a person is diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, tells them that they will be praying for them. That's because although they rarely practice their faith, and for all intents and purposes live like they do not believe in God, they still do.
What I am asking is: What are the grieving customs (or things people do when others are diagnosed with a major illness, etc.) in Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, France, Germany, etc.? If you don't believe in an afterlife, you obviously don't say "they're in a better place now". If you don't believe in a God, or some impersonal "life force", you probably don't put much faith in prayer. This is a question I've been curious about for a long time.
The process of grief has nothing to do with religion. Grief is emotional; for those who believe in God, Buddha, Mohammad or other Diety it can be along religious lines however, it is still an emotional process. For others who do not believe in man made Religion but are spiritual it can be that as well. Every human grieves in their own way but it is an emotional process that can be helped along religiously or spiritually if that individual believes in religion or spirituality.
If you believe that there is any existence at all for a person after that person dies (other than a decaying body), then that is by definition a religious belief.
Not necessarily Christian, but religious nonetheless. If you hope for "something more" or "something better," then you're expressing a RELIGIOUS hope.
The process of grief has nothing to do with religion. Grief is emotional; for those who believe in God, Buddha, Mohammad or other Diety it can be along religious lines however, it is still an emotional process. For others who do not believe in man made Religion but are spiritual it can be that as well. Every human grieves in their own way but it is an emotional process that can be helped along religiously or spiritually if that individual believes in religionorspirituality.
spir·it·u·al/ˈspiriCHo͞oəl/
Adjective:
Of, relating to, or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things
Originally Posted by CSD610 The process of grief has nothing to do with religion. Grief is emotional; for those who believe in God, Buddha, Mohammad or other Diety it can be along religious lines however, it is still an emotional process. For others who do not believe in man made Religion but are spiritual it can be that as well. Every human grieves in their own way but it is an emotional process that can be helped along religiously or spiritually if that individual believes in religionorspirituality.
Posted by Erasure: spir·it·u·al/ˈspiriCHo͞oəl/
Adjective:
Of, relating to, or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things
So what exactly are we talking about here?
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I'm not the one who posted the comments Erasure is inquiring about, but I am responding because I find the the uses of "religion" and "spiritually" vexing because they seem to always be left undefined....moreover, "spirituality" always strikes me as an ambiguous hedge.
Religion in my mind is an organized set of beliefs and institutions relating to a supernatural being(s) who created the world of humans, takes and interest in their affairs and may be petioned and appeased and expects to be or else.
"Spirituality" when it is set up in opposition to religion, as in the first posting, strikes me as simply a watered down catch-all, a usually unorganized and non-doctrinal kind of "religion lite."
I am left wondering where those Buddhists and Jains who do not believe in a creator god or petionary prayer would be supposed to fit in. Can they be "spiritual" if they are atheists?
For me the definition of spiritual as cited is meaningless. I see the human being as a unitary creature, and not one that has some soul thingy or spirit thingy attached to a physical body thingy.
I too see grief as a human emotion--plain and simple, and its expression doesn't need a religious or "spiritual" setting, any more than the joy over birth does.
One can channel or adorn grief with ceremony and customs rooted in religious belief, or vaguer spiritual musings or ceremony devoid of either association...or none at all. Grief is grief regardless of the window dressings it may be decorated with.
I thought those atheistic commies in North Korea, for example, were having one hell of a bang up time with their grief. The deepest expression of grief I have ever witnessed was at a Sicilian funeral I attended many years ago, at which the widow of a notorious philanderer just at the moment the coffin was to be sealed, hurled herself across the corpse, and clutching the crotch of the deceased with one hand screamed, " He was mine, mine, all mine."
These two examples do make me wonder if religion and "spirituality" may not inhibit our grief as we would really have it, were they not so busy telling to us what it is they say we are supposed to.
... The Christian who in good times never prays or goes to Mass offers re-assurance at the funeral to dead's immediate family that they are in heaven, and that God will never give them too much to bear, or when a person is diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, tells them that they will be praying for them. That's because although they rarely practice their faith, and for all intents and purposes live like they do not believe in God, they still do.
This come close to raising the much debated question of whether there can be salvation between the stirrup and the ground. It was one that certainly provided Graham Greene with material wonderful novels.
Quote:
... If you don't believe in an afterlife, you obviously don't say "they're in a better place now". If you don't believe in a God, or some impersonal "life force", you probably don't put much faith in prayer. This is a question I've been curious about for a long time.
I am one of those who puts zero faith in prayer, I certainly have wished that someone would recover from an illness or wished that they would died quickly when terminally ill, but prayer certainly never comes into the picture.
Having worked closely with terminally ill people for almost a decade, I can assure you that I have often felt and said that a deceased person was in a "better place now" after they died - the grave. The grave is a boon to those going through an agonizing death, and without a doubt a "better place" than a bed of hellish pain. My mother yearned and begged for it, and pulling the plug most certainly put her "in a better place," and that place was the grave.
I think one of the reasons religion exists and is so widespread in the world is because of death. Expressing grief at a loved one's death is natural and human. However, it's evident that many people don't realize that their need to believe in "something more" after death or that they will somehow meet their loved one again is a sign of religion.
Maybe a lot of Europeans don't realize that deep down inside they are actually religious. If you dig deep enough, then you get to the truth of the matter.
But according to science and reason, not only will you and your near and dear ones cease to exist, but the human species itself will become extinct eventually or evolve into another species. You will not be remembered any more than you care about your non-human ancestors.
If you believe that there is any existence at all for a person after that person dies (other than a decaying body), then that is by definition a religious belief.
Not necessarily Christian, but religious nonetheless. If you hope for "something more" or "something better," then you're expressing a RELIGIOUS hope.
I disagree.
People experience unusual things in their lives which may indicate, to them, of a continuation of some kind, but this in no way presupposes that there is a god or ritual or any sort of 'religious' explanation.
To the individual, all it might mean is that the real world is larger and more complex than science is now capable of addressing.
It does not negate materialism, but may enhance it.
I think there are rational and not 'religious' explanations for things, but our knowledge and discovery are constantly moving forward and the unexplained will one day have explanation.
Last edited by goldengrain; 01-31-2012 at 03:23 PM..
Atheists are people too. Which means we grieve like ehm.. people.
I usually ask myself ........
How would Zeus or Odin handle this?
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