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Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,087,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back to NE
Just male companionship. In Turkey, men talk close and may even walk together arm in arm. And in general in Europe and Latin America, men can socialize together and show a level of intimacy in comfort.
Now in ever-homophobic America, you can't do these things unless you are really drunk. Especially after the age of about 22. How and why the US got so homophobic is another subject. Ironically it has made many men in relationships subserviant to their wives and girlfriends. Most married men I know call their wives 'boss.'
Also kissing on the cheeks between two men is not socially acceptable in Anglo countries.
The chocolate thing is weird, I don't think men like chocolate or sweets any LESS than women, I think it's related to the tradition of men buying women chocolates, but really, I don't really see that much of a gender distinction nowadays. I personally love good chocolates and know women who hate chocolates. Also, like in the other thread, how some women will not drink beer and prefer those mixed drinks.
All these things raise the question of how some of the associations got that way in the first place. Some of them seem quite arbitrary (but then again most aspects of culture, besides those that are functional or practical are arbitrary, such as fashions, fads, slang etc.)
For instance, how did musicals and singing and dancing become associated with being gay or effeminate to begin with, when it was in fact American culture itself who created much of that culture in the first place in the middle of the last century?
The argument that American culture disdains men singing and dancing because it's seen as "gay" seems to be putting the cart before the horse, since society was intolerant of homosexuality before these things got their association with being effeminate to begin with -- it happened in the couple of generations since West Side Story made its debut, when society become otherwise looser on gender norms.
Just male companionship. In Turkey, men talk close and may even walk together arm in arm. And in general in Europe and Latin America, men can socialize together and show a level of intimacy in comfort.
Now in ever-homophobic America, you can't do these things unless you are really drunk. Especially after the age of about 22. How and why the US got so homophobic is another subject. Ironically it has made many men in relationships subserviant to their wives and girlfriends. Most married men I know call their wives 'boss.'
What I find interesting is that what is seen as masculine or feminine still differs even among countries with strong gender roles -- for instance, obviously there are countries that are more "traditionalist" about gender or to say it bluntly, very sexist, compared to the US and western countries; examples are in places such as the Middle East obviously (I know Turkey is among the most "liberal" of Middle Eastern countries though but even it is considered very conservative by western standards) yet even in the Middle East they'll do things considered to be "gay" here in North America, such as men who are friends sitting close and holding hands as you say.
For instance, India or Japan have more "traditionalist" attitudes about gender than the US, but don't have an association with gender and song and dance in musicals, or gender with chocolate, like the US does.
All cultures in the world separate things that are considered masculine and things considered feminine to a degree, but what I find curious is what exactly the individual cultural elements seen as masculine or feminine still differ.
What I find interesting is that what is seen as masculine or feminine still differs even among countries with strong gender roles -- for instance, obviously there are countries that are more "traditionalist" about gender or to say it bluntly, very sexist, compared to the US and western countries; examples are in places such as the Middle East obviously (I know Turkey is among the most "liberal" of Middle Eastern countries though but even it is considered very conservative by western standards) yet even in the Middle East they'll do things considered to be "gay" here in North America, such as men who are friends sitting close and holding hands as you say.
For instance, India or Japan have more "traditionalist" attitudes about gender than the US, but don't have an association with gender and song and dance in musicals, or gender with chocolate, like the US does.
All cultures in the world separate things that are considered masculine and things considered feminine to a degree, but what I find curious is what exactly the individual cultural elements seen as masculine or feminine still differ.
I haven't seen any people from the Middle Eastern region holding hands. However, I have seen this. I have Turkish friends, and from what I gather, it seems pretty normal for two straight men unrelated to one another to hug one another.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,087,446 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumbler.
All these things raise the question of how some of the associations got that way in the first place. Some of them seem quite arbitrary (but then again most aspects of culture, besides those that are functional or practical are arbitrary, such as fashions, fads, slang etc.)
For instance, how did musicals and singing and dancing become associated with being gay or effeminate to begin with, when it was in fact American culture itself who created much of that culture in the first place in the middle of the last century?
The argument that American culture disdains men singing and dancing because it's seen as "gay" seems to be putting the cart before the horse, since society was intolerant of homosexuality before these things got their association with being effeminate to begin with -- it happened in the couple of generations since West Side Story made its debut, when society become otherwise looser on gender norms.
I wonder if there's any relationship between sexuality and being creative? I imagine back then as now, a disproportionate number of gay men were in the entertainment industry, particularly musicals and live theater, and over time the association developed between homosexuals and musicals and the whole 'song and dance?' I think many gay men were attracted to the combination of style, flamboyance which they were otherwise not allowed to express having 'straight' (pardon the pun, in those days 'straight' often had a different connotation of just being conventional) occupations where they wore business suits instead of elaborate costumes.
There were a lot of masculine men in a lot of the 50s musicals singing and dancing, and although there was something sort of dainty about the likes of Fred Astaire, did anyone question his sexuality?
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,087,446 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot
Same thing in Italy.
Same thing in Argentina and Uruguay.
It means nothing more than "good to see you."
More so than this, I'm still befuddled by the chocolate stereotype. That's ludicrous.
I've heard due to American influence the younger generation are not doing this as much. I think it's kind of annoying American homophobia is spreading all over the world, especially when it's got nothing to do with homosexuality.
I've noticed that football (soccer) is considered a feminine sport in the US and Canada whereas it's very much a masculine sport in Europe, South America and Africa.
In Europe, men often wear tight-fitting clothes whereas in the US this is often considered feminine or "gay".
only idiots consider soccer to be a feminine sport , soccer is the sport of street kids and working class wide boys , australians and new zealanders often refer to soccer as a gay boys sport and think rugby is for tough guys , in most of europe , rugby is played by upper class preppy toffs
i once visited argentina , i worked on a ranch for a week , the men used to kiss each other upon meeting , thats the italian influence , tony soprano often kisses johny sack from new york
In a lot of social circles in the Southern United States, a man who dresses well (in a conservative sense) is still considered manly, but in other parts of the US, this is not the case.
in rural australia and new zealand , unless you have zero dress sense , your labeled gay , i mean if you wear anything other than a cheque shirt and blue jeans
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