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Great Britain is an island which consists of England, Wales and Scotland
The British Isles is Great Britain (the island of Great Britain, Island of Ireland and surronding islands which included Jersey, Shetlands islands, Orkney etc...) So it can be said that an Irish person from the Irish republic can be British because its located within the British isles however for many reasons they identify themself as Irish only.
Now the Island of Ireland is to the west of Great Britain which consists of the Republic of Ireland e.i not apart of the United Kingdom however Northern Ireland is.
So the United Kingdom is Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland - given it a official name of the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'
So every 'country' thats in the UK is British under citizenship but culturally someone from Belfast, Northern Ireland may only refer to themselves as northern Irish or Irish.
So scottish bagpipes, haggis, wales' st david and Northern Ireland's ulster fry are equally as British as many cultural stereotypes of England.
Very good! Im impressed! Knew about ulster fry etc.
A lot of people have difficulty with what is Britain, what is the UK and what is the British Isles. A lot of Australians still think Ireland is part of the UK. I mean is the Isle of Man part of the UK? I don't think it is but if you are not from that part of the world it is a bit confusing to be honest.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK. The rest of Ireland is not.
The island of Ireland is part of the British Isles but not part of Britain..... sorry I know its tricky.
Maybe these maps will help to illustate:
THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND: (all the bits in white)
BRITAIN (GREAT BRITAIN): (all these bits)
THE BRITISH ISLES: (all of it apart from the bit of France shown obviously)
Hope that helps.
Basically 'The British Isles' is geographical, the 'United Kingdom of the Great Britain and Northern Ireland' is political.
The Isle of Man is another slight anomaly. It's is not part of the UK but its citizens are British. It is part of the British islands but is self governing.
'Britain' refers to the United Kingdom, similar to how America is applied to the United States, even if it is incorrect. Britain has no geographical reference. Great Britain, however, is an island, obviously.
The Isle of Mann, along with Jersey and Guernsey, are not part of the United Kingdom. They are not sovereign nations, either. They are not overseas territories, either. They are Crown Dependencies, they 'belong' to the British Crown (i.e Queen Elizabeth II), and rely on the United Kingdom for defense. They receive little to no political or economical interference from Westminster. The people who live there usually identify with Britain, even though the Channel Islands have plenty of French influence.
I think P London explained the situation pretty well - people in Scotland and Wales are British by nationality, even if they prefer to identify with Scottish or Welsh.
Last edited by dunno what to put here; 03-08-2013 at 02:23 PM..
Dport I didn't want to go into it because I don't want to start insulting Americans here on this forum but since you are pushing me here are a few of my stories. You'll probably think I'm making this up because its ridiculously stupid stuff, but I can assure you I'm not.
I am originally from Liverpool so I have what you Americans would think is 'a bit of a funny accent'.
Someone once said to me "I hear from your accent you are from Scotland". Lightheartedly I replied: "well no you're close, actually I'm English". He point blank refused to believe I wasn't Scottish. "No, you are definitely Scottish". He was being serious. As if I didn't know where I come from!!!
Another time I was on a house viewing and a few ladies were standing around discussing a full length picture window because people kept walking into it thinking it was an opening. I overheard the conversation and said "maybe put a door there". They all looked at me as if I was from Mars. Believe it or not they couldn't understand my accent when I said 'door' because I pronounce it 'dor' instead of 'dooooo-orrrr'. In end I had to pronounce it in a really American accent then said "I'm English". This was obviously a huge mistake because from the dirty looks I got, they obviously thought I was insulting the language (they were all very stuck up).
I've had other similar examples of the door story. Such as you have to say 'wadrr' instead of 'water' otherwise you might as well be speaking German.
Also I've had occasion where I've said I'm English then you have to go into a whole drawn out explanation about it whereas if you just say British, people tend to just let it go.
Funny story! LOL!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JennyMominRI
This reminds me of a skit from Children in Need with the 10th Doctor, David Tennant who is from Scotland
Mr. Logan- As I'm sure you're aware my name is Mr. Logan, I'm your new English teacher. Nice to meet you all. Hope you're all ready to get to grips with some Elizabethan literature. Let all turn to page fifty three, in our poetry text books. I think we'll dive straight in with the bard himself.
Lauren- Sir?
Mr. Logan- Yeah
Lauren- Are you English, sir?
Mr. Logan- No, I'm Scottish.
Lauren- So you ain't English then.
Mr. Logan- No, I'm British.
Lauren- So you ain't English then.
Mr. Logan- No I'm not but as you can see I do speak English
It's an American thing and this is predominantly an American forum. Seriously not meaning offence here but a lot of Americans haven't got a clue about this stuff, so its easier to just say 'British'.
The rule I follow is to use England or English only when something is geographical or related to England alone. If something is cultural or political, I use British. For example, I watch British drama, listen to British music and wear British fashion, even if the drama, music and clothes in question are from London and created by people who are unquestionably English.
Would you say this is incorrect? It's more-or-less the way my friends in Scotland use the terms.
Great Britain is an island which consists of England, Wales and Scotland
The British Isles is Great Britain (the island of Great Britain, Island of Ireland and surronding islands which included Jersey, Shetlands islands, Orkney etc...) So it can be said that an Irish person from the Irish republic can be British because its located within the British isles however for many reasons they identify themself as Irish only....
Sorry P London, I think this statement could be a little misleading depending on how you read it. In saying 'The British Isles is Great Britain..etc' could be taken to mean that 'The British Isles means the same as Great Britain' (which we know it doesn't). I know what you meant though - not trying to be an @rse, just wanted to clarify for our chums on my side of the pond:
The British Isles includes Great Britain, the island of Ireland, the Orkney and Shetland Islands, the Isle of Man, the Inner and Outer Hebrides, the Isle of Wight, the Scilly Islands, Lundy Island and the Channel Islands.
I agree with the rest of your post and about identity etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunno what to put here
'Britain' refers to the United Kingdom, similar to how America is applied to the United States, even if it is incorrect. Britain has no geographical reference. Great Britain, however, is an island, obviously.
Britain means the same thing as Great Britain - one is just a shortened version of the other. Britain does have a geographical reference. See map above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpk-nyc
The rule I follow is to use England or English only when something is geographical or related to England alone. If something is cultural or political, I use British. For example, I watch British drama, listen to British music and wear British fashion, even if the drama, music and clothes in question are from London and created by people who are unquestionably English.
Would you say this is incorrect? It's more-or-less the way my friends in Scotland use the terms.
Yes that's all good. No problems there.
I'm beginning to appreciate how tricky this all is.
When you are from the UK you just sort of absorb it, but I can see where the confusion lies.
Just to go back to the original post, what tazzled was saying is that somehow the word 'English' seems to have got lost somewhere in recent years. If you hear an Englishman speak, these days he is referred to as British. If you hear someone from Scotland speak they are referred to as Scottish. If you hear an Irish person speak, they are referred to as Irish. If you hear a Welsh person speak, they are referred to as Welsh. It is only the English person who is not referred to by their country's language. I don't think anyone cares too much, it's just a strange anomaly.
Just to go back to the original post, what tazzled was saying is that somehow the word 'English' seems to have got lost somewhere in recent years. If you hear an Englishman speak, these days he is referred to as British. If you hear someone from Scotland speak they are referred to as Scottish. If you hear an Irish person speak, they are referred to as Irish. If you hear a Welsh person speak, they are referred to as Welsh. It is only the English person who is not referred to by their country's language. I don't think anyone cares too much, its just a strange anomaly.
It is something of a double-standard and I understand how the English could find it annoying. The Scots get to sequester parts of “Scottish culture” whereas nearly all of English culture is generically subsumed under “British culture.” It’s the price of a dominant majority.
Agreed. But what is interesting is in spite of the fact they have less official name status as countries, on the ground Flanders and Wallonia are more different from each other, and Quebec more different from the rest of Canada, than Scotland and Wales are from England.
Right. Also, I'm not sure the word "country" is something officially defined in a international way. "sovereign states" are recognised, "nations" maybe (although in the same meaning as "states", when the real meaning might be actually different). But "countries" I don't think so. In usual speach it seems that "country" is used as a synonym of "sovereign state". As such the UK or Belgium would be the "countries", while england, Wales, Flanders or Wallonia are autonomous regions.
I know British people usually consider Scotland, Wales, England to be different countries, but in my opinion, as long as they aren't "sovereign states", they aren't really "countries". That at least how it works In french: United Kingdom is considered the country, while Scotland, Wales, aren't. With the traditional confusion that consist of saying "Angleterre" to reffer to the whole country "United Kingdom/Royaume Uni"
Right. Also, I'm not sure the word "country" is something officially defined in a international way. "sovereign states" are recognised, "nations" maybe (although in the same meaning as "states", when the real meaning might be actually different). But "countries" I don't think so. In usual speach it seems that "country" is used as a synonym of "sovereign state". As such the UK or Belgium would be the "countries", while england, Wales, Flanders or Wallonia are autonomous regions.
I know British people usually consider Scotland, Wales, England to be different countries, but in my opinion, as long as they aren't "sovereign states", they aren't really "countries". That at least how it works In french: United Kingdom is considered the country, while Scotland, Wales, aren't. With the traditional confusion that consist of saying "Angleterre" to reffer to the whole country "United Kingdom/Royaume Uni"
Also, in French "pays" is the equivalent word for country. It means both a sovereign state as well as something akin to "land" in English, or like a region of a country.
When people in France refer to "Pays de la Loire", they aren't implying in any way that it is close to being an independent country like Slovenia or Peru.
Also, in French "pays" is the equivalent word for country. It means both a sovereign state as well as something akin to "land" in English, or like a region of a country.
When people in France refer to "Pays de la Loire", they aren't implying in any way that it is close to being an independent country like Slovenia or Peru.
Yes, the french word "pays" has different meanings depending of context: either "country" (in the meaning of sovereign state) and "land" or "region". But I have to say that the second meaning is not really used outside of some regional namings such as "Pays de la Loire" (the part of the Loire Valley where I am is not "pays de la Loire" but the region "centre", which actually is not in the center of the country but more in the north-west quarter).
There were other meanings for "pays": I remember my grandmother saying "je vais au pays" to mean going to the village/town....
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sorry I know its tricky.
