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Are you saying that a place like the Netherlands is a culturally "libertarian" place, with legalized marijuana, prostitution, and early gay marriage?
Also, what country are you from? This is really interesting, because I didn't think that libertarians really existed outside of the US, except for a few in Canada and the UK.
That's probably because you assumed libertarian = economic libertarian, hm?
But yes, many social laws in CONTINENTAL Europe (so not Scandinavia) are "libertarian". Use Germany for example. Age of consent in Germany is 14, drinking age is 16, but if guardian is present it's 14. Drinking in the public and smoking indoors is allowed. In Berlin, even drinking on public transportation is allowed. But Europeans just don't call it 'libertarian'.
What things are banned and regulated? Everything is banned in Sweden. They're the most paternalistic country in the west. They have one of the most strict drug policies in the western world (you can pretty much get up to 6 months just for being high), over-taxed alcohol, banned many types of "unhealthy" food, prostitution (crazy Nordic model making things much worse), not to mention that you can't rent a place (apt) because of statist regulations and waiting lists. What uncontrolled acceptance or refugees? Are you kidding me? Bunch of unintegrated muslims in Swedish city suburbs. Rape wave and crime on a rise (google it up). There's no society as segregated as Swedish. Norway is not much better, and yes, Finland IS better, but Finland alone is not majority of Scandinavia. Granades? Just google it up (mostly in Malmo), it will show up easily. I mean why are you even asking me these kind of questions? You're ether trolling or you're super uninformed about your own region. These are pretty well known facts.
No, I wasn't offended, you are just terribly misinformed.
No, you can't be jailed for being high in Sweden, actually that is not even a criminal offence. Only if you possess or the cops see you using drugs may result in a fine. Jail, no way.
I don't know what 'banned' food you are referring to, as AFAIK not any foods are banned in Sweden, nor in the other countries. Also Sweden is the only country where there are housing regulations. In Finland, Norway and Denmark there is a free market like in all other Western countries.
Prostitution is illegal in Sweden and Norway, but legal in Finland and Denmark.
About 'uncontrolled acceptance of refugees', last year Finland and Denmark accepted around 2000 refugees each, Norway around 3500.
And believe me, no grenades are going off in Swedish suburbs. It's nothing but false propaganda.
But yes, many social laws in CONTINENTAL Europe (so not Scandinavia) are "libertarian". Use Germany for example. Age of consent in Germany is 14, drinking age is 16, but if guardian is present it's 14. Drinking in the public and smoking indoors is allowed. In Berlin, even drinking on public transportation is allowed. But Europeans just don't call it 'libertarian'.
Smoking indoors is banned in both Canada and Australia.
Meanwhile drinking in public is legal in Scandinavia, but not in Canada.
Please do your homework before making too rash conclusions how 'liberal' one country is.
I'm not black, nether lower class, but I don't consider myself a Christian. I'm leaning more towards Eastern Spirituality, but I assume that wouldn't be a problem considering the number of Asians, haha.
But if I was not clear, I'll use prostitution example once again. There's a way how prostitution is regulated in Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Australia, Nevada in the US, on one side (I would classify it as a libertarian way) and there's a way how it's regulated in Sweden, Norway, Iceland and Canada, on the other side (I would calcify it as as paternalistic way). Nether of this regulations are conservative, but they are VERY different.
I'm 100% pro former one.
Now imply this principle to ANYTHING happening in the country. It's a question is it "you know the best" type of liberalism or "we know better than you" type of liberalism.
Australia is culturally conservative. Canada is culturally more liberal. But I consider the Swedish laws to be conservative myself.
Libertarian evokes the idea of freedom of choice. The problem with comparing the two countries is that Australia is more economically "lassiez-faire", while Canada is more culturally liberal; I actually think that you'd be better off in some European country because the concept you describe is something I associate with Europe, you should remember that both Canada and Australia are right of (more conservative than) the UK.
US libertarian values would mean that PBS got shutdown.
European libertarian values could easily mean that PBS took over the entire television industry and created channels for minority views that capitalism couldn't afford to represent.
In European libertarian culture, libertarian does not equal capitalism.
Leans towards libertarian.
European libertarian values could easily mean that PBS took over the entire television industry and created channels for minority views that capitalism couldn't afford to represent.
In European libertarian culture, libertarian does not equal capitalism.
Leans towards libertarian.
Okay, thanks for the response. From what I can tell, what you call "libertarian", we call socially liberal.
No, I wasn't offended, you are just terribly misinformed.
No actually, YOU are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete
No, you can't be jailed for being high in Sweden, actually that is not even a criminal offence. Only if you possess or the cops see you using drugs may result in a fine. Jail, no way.
.
No, I wasn't offended, you are just terribly misinformed.
Also Sweden is the only country where there are housing regulations. In Finland, Norway and Denmark there is a free market like in all other Western countries.
That's probably because you assumed libertarian = economic libertarian, hm?
But yes, many social laws in CONTINENTAL Europe (so not Scandinavia) are "libertarian". Use Germany for example. Age of consent in Germany is 14, drinking age is 16, but if guardian is present it's 14. Drinking in the public and smoking indoors is allowed. In Berlin, even drinking on public transportation is allowed. But Europeans just don't call it 'libertarian'.
Yes, understand that for us, "libertarian" means both socially open but also minimum government intervention. You can't have one or the other, only when you put both together are you libertarian. For us saying you are "culturally" libertarian mean nothing, the way you describe it only makes you a social liberal. You are only "libertarian when you mix that belief in social freedom with economic freedom.
For example, Germany's laws allowing the young low drinking age is socially liberal, not libertarian. The 14 year old is only being "allowed" to do something by a benevolent state. To my mind that is totally contradictory. Because he has a law telling him what he can and can't do, that is not freedom, that is only permission. Just like if your dad says you can go outside and play, it doesn't mean you are truly free to go out and play, it only means you have permission. He would only be free if the government didn't "allow" or disallow him to do as he wishes. Which is what I find odd about the Dutch being libertarian in any sense of the word. For example, gays can only marry because they have permission to do so from an overseeing government, the same government that previously banned them from doing so. What we call "liberal".
The Canadian lack of abortion laws is libertarian. No one says you can or can't perform them. You are free to do it if you want, and that freedom isn't dependent on a government body giving you permission to perform one. What I mean by libertarian is also what it means in English Canada, and I am pretty sure the entire native English-speaking world. I have to wonder if something isn't being lost in translation.
Yes, understand that for us, "libertarian" means both socially open but also minimum government intervention. You can't have one or the other, only when you put both together are you libertarian. For us saying you are "culturally" libertarian mean nothing, the way you describe it only makes you a social liberal. You are only "libertarian when you mix that belief in social freedom with economic freedom.
For example, Germany's laws allowing the young low drinking age is socially liberal, not libertarian. The 14 year old is only being "allowed" to do something by a benevolent state. To my mind that is totally contradictory. Because he has a law telling him what he can and can't do, that is not freedom, that is only permission. Just like if your dad says you can go outside and play, it doesn't mean you are truly free to go out and play, it only means you have permission. He would only be free if the government didn't "allow" or disallow him to do as he wishes. Which is what I find odd about the Dutch being libertarian in any sense of the word. For example, gays can only marry because they have permission to do so from an overseeing government, the same government that previously banned them from doing so. What we call "liberal".
The Canadian lack of abortion laws is libertarian. No one says you can or can't perform them. You are free to do it if you want, and that freedom isn't dependent on a government body giving you permission to perform one. What I mean by libertarian is also what it means in English Canada, and I am pretty sure the entire native English-speaking world. I have to wonder if something isn't being lost in translation.
In Europe, I think the term libertarian is closest to the phrase "freedom of choice" or "pro-choice". So Europe an cultural values are very similar to US values, but economic values aren't restricted to a capitalist philosophy.
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