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While I will not mention any names or locations, what I am finding is just that, this realtor acted on their own behalf and bought the property when the customer they were showing it to did not purchase it. And they are now trying to sell, with the market and the economy on the down swing it is back on the market and I am getting very vague answers to my questions. Finally got them to admit they had an interest in property and really didn't get a whole lot of info back especially about the spring and septic. Maybe that explains why they haven't answered any of my e-mails to arrange a meeting to see the property.
Thank You everybody for all your help. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your advice.
John
While I will not mention any names or locations, what I am finding is just that, this realtor acted on their own behalf and bought the property when the customer they were showing it to did not purchase it. And they are now trying to sell, with the market and the economy on the down swing it is back on the market and I am getting very vague answers to my questions. Finally got them to admit they had an interest in property and really didn't get a whole lot of info back especially about the spring and septic. Maybe that explains why they haven't answered any of my e-mails to arrange a meeting to see the property.
Thank You everybody for all your help. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your advice.
John
LOL ... this is an oft-repeated tale in Wyoming.
It's a very big deal for the seller/real estate agent to not disclose up front that they have an interest in the property for sale. You should never have had to get "them to admit they had an interest in (the) property", it should have been their absolute first disclosure about the property for sale, before even giving you details of the property. Their vested interest in the property as a professional is a primary aspect of your potential client relationship because they aren't acting as an agent for a seller, they are acting for their own interest and that can affect the information that they pass on to you. This is critical because Wyoming is a non-reporting state, so you can't simply look up sold property transactions to determine a FMV or where you'd like to be at for an offer. You are dependent upon the representations of the seller unless you also seek out the services of an independent real estate appraiser.
The reason, of course, that you are now getting vague answers is because you are asking the relevant questions to the transaction and they are playing the typical Wyoming realtor games; ie, to never say anything as a definitive statement of condition or description, but to always use terms of such indefinite meaning as to lead your client to make assumptions ... whether they are correct or not is to your benefit as the agent. You can't be held liable for something that you didn't say ... and these folk are exceptionally careful to frame any answer so that they aren't accountable.
Thank you again sun spirit for great information. Folks like you make this a great place to visit. As I read back over the old e-mails from realtor that is exactly what was happening. Still am not going to rule out WY as I (we) really like the country out there.
In defense of real estate agents, and I dont like most of them, they overdo protecting themselves for a good reason: LAWYERS.
THey have been sued for the most trivial of reasons.
My favorite is for stating incorrect square footage. I know agents that do not disclose the square footage for fear of a lawsuit. Being off by just a few sq ft can cause a buyer to bring suit.
In defense of real estate agents, and I dont like most of them, they overdo protecting themselves for a good reason: LAWYERS.
THey have been sued for the most trivial of reasons.
My favorite is for stating incorrect square footage. I know agents that do not disclose the square footage for fear of a lawsuit. Being off by just a few sq ft can cause a buyer to bring suit.
At the risk of hijacking this thread ... I'll disagree with you re "they overdo protecting themselves for a good reason: LAWYERS."
The big reason that most of the real estate agents in Wyoming have a culture of poor ethics and self-serving service is: PROFIT.
That's the only explanation that fits when I've seen so many situations where an agent is asked to list a property for sale, and instead buys the property at the outset. The typical scenario is simple: a property owner has no idea what their property is worth in the marketplace, and there's little guidance to be had from the county assessor's valuation.
So they call their trusted resource to list a property; in some rural markets, there may be only one or two agents and the folk have made it a point to be friendly to all through community associations. The agent shows up for the listing meeting, and asks how much money the sellers are looking for from the property. After much generalizations and some discussion, the real estate agent who knows the local market better than anyone else in the area will determine that the sellers will be satisfied, if not happy, to sell for a price that is much less than the market will bear. One way or another, the result of this will be that the agent buys the property on their own behalf, although the exact path to get there may be obfuscated with a listing contract, some showings, or some other methods leading to the agent's personal offer to buy based upon their inside information as to the seller's situation/motivations. You have to appreciate that the listing agent is privvy to a lot of information about a property and sellers that is not ever going to reach you as an arm's length buyer in the open market.
The property is held for a minimal amount of time, and then placed back into the marketplace by the agent. Sometimes small defects in the property are fixed, sometimes ... not. Rest assured, however, that the new asking price will be substantially more than what was paid for it by the agent. I have seen some cases where the agent was working on multiples of their purchase price ... a doubling or tripling of their acquisition cost. In one case of a property that I bought, the agent convinced the seller that they had a problem property in a distress situation and subsequently marked up the land by 600%, although that did come at the incidental cost of new surveys and cutting in a mile of road. The price I paid per acre was a FMV, so you can readily see by just how much the seller was taken advantage of in this land deal. Other parcels of the ranch are now selling at over 10 times what the real estate agent paid for the land per acre, although it's now a few years later. OH, the agent retained the mineral rights and the land is in play in the current SE Wyoming oil exploration. I understand that he negotiated and received $400 per acre for an oil lease on a couple of sections.
In any other marketplace, the ethics of the real estate agent would have been a primary responsibility to the prospective sellers to maximize their sale price return, tempered by their time frame and other factors to result in a closing. That's what he was called in to do, provide a professional service. Instead, it is routinely practiced here in Wyoming to take advantage of the seller's lack of information and their circumstances to the primary advantage of the real estate agent.
Please note that this is not a situation where a good faith effort to market and maximize a property potential was attempted by the agent before reaching a sales agreement. There are agents who will advertise that they will buy your property for a pre-negotiated price if they cannot sell it within a certain time frame, and this is an upfront disclosure and agreement. As well, there are other agents who advertise that they will buy your property, so if you call them the legitimate relationship is set for their evaluation and purchase. And there are agents who will buy a property for their portfolio from another sales listing with an eye toward re-selling the property.
Now, when it comes to the water issues associated with Wyoming rural properties, this isn't a case of a real estate agent trying to avoid liability issues. Just about every time I've encountered folk who didn't buy what they thought they were buying ... it's because an agent used vague language to guide buyers into making conclusions based upon their knowledge of what seemed right, fair, reasonable and proper in the context of the water laws of other states. Particularly vulnerable are those folk who move here from riparian states where water quality and availability isn't at issue, because many of those folk don't even ask about this issue and make very bad assumptions as to what they are buying. Typically, the assumptions add value to the property under consideration. It's the buyers' problem after the closing when they discover they didn't buy what they thought they were buying and the agent hadn't lied to them. Well, on further reflection ... I've seen situations where the agent did lie to them, but trying to prove that after the fact "he said, she said" is the stuff of expensive litigation unless the lies were in writing.
And so it goes ... most of the agents I've dealt with in rural Wyoming regard their commissions as "found money". If you come in as a knowledgeable and capable buyer, they don't want to provide service for their prospective payday because you're too much work. There's enough traffic and action in the office with folk who have the financial ability to make a bona fide offer and close that they don't have to really work. This situation is in light of the fact that so many people have misconceptions about what Wyoming has to offer ... witness the number of sales offices/agents specializing in selling very questionable parcels of old ranches in some really terrible locations for top dollar to the unsuspecting buyers who think they're getting a piece of "the Old West" and the dream. Note the marketing tactics most use ... everything gets somehow tied to the beauty and wildlife of YNP, or some distant view of a wooded hillside on a picturesque mountainside. Of course, that's not what the property has on offer, but the romance associated with the beauty parts is what the sales agent is pushing. What you're really buying is the aroma and sizzle, but not the steak ....
You folk that see a 40 acre parcel of old barren ranch land in the middle of nowhere don't really think that a parcel that had a productive value of less than $100/acre is magically transformed into a $3,000 per acre parcel simply because a developer came in and cut a couple of crude roads and platted out the section, do you? What is it that you think you're buying? The sellers are laughing all the way to the bank while you struggle to enjoy your purchase. This was tough land to make a living from in territorial days, and a century and change later hasn't improved it ....
You are talking about frontrunning, which is actually illegal in many other occupations where there is some fiduciary responsibility; it should be illegal in real estate.
Also, an agent who does not give a client an fair estimate on FMV and then buys the property and resells at a significant profit is committing fraud. In calif this has been prosecuted; I dont know about wyoming.
BUYER BEWARE. I cant repeat that enough.
Pay for an independent appraisal, talk to real estate agents from outside the area you want to purchase. Hire a real estate attorney from outside the area.
Spending $1000 or so is money well spent to prevent getting screwed.
You are talking about frontrunning, which is actually illegal in many other occupations where there is some fiduciary responsibility; it should be illegal in real estate.
Also, an agent who does not give a client an fair estimate on FMV and then buys the property and resells at a significant profit is committing fraud. In calif this has been prosecuted; I dont know about wyoming.
BUYER BEWARE. I cant repeat that enough.
Pay for an independent appraisal, talk to real estate agents from outside the area you want to purchase. Hire a real estate attorney from outside the area.
Spending $1000 or so is money well spent to prevent getting screwed.
Unfortunately, it isn't illegal in real estate and it most certainly is a common practice in rural Wyoming's real estate professionals. The folk who do this are careful not to enter into a contractual relationship where there is any obligation to a client, or they do it in such a way that a client is lead to believe that they are doing them a favor by taking the property off their hands.
Much of this stems from the non-reporting status of Wyoming real estate transactions.
Agreed, buyer beware. An independent appraisal is a good step, but many times there isn't time to get one ... and in Wyoming, there aren't a lot of appraisers who can get an appraisal together in a short time frame. I've had as much as 120 days between ordering an appraisal and receiving one on rural properties. I had one commercial property appraisal take over 6 months because there were so few comp's in the marketplace and the people with knowledge of the deals weren't talking to anybody; it was only after some disclosures revealed in a divorce proceeding and a talkative relative in another deal that some reliable information was obtained. The cost of that appraisal was staggering; it amounted to several percent of the final deal which was in mid 6-figures.
Again, BP ... I don't think you fully comprehend the nature of rural real estate transactions in Wyoming. An "out of the area" attorney or real estate agent has little to bring to the table because the local knowledge needed to ascertain pricing is on a personal relationship basis. There's no database which an out of the area appraiser or realtor can consult; the only way appraiser information is gathered is to contact buyers or sellers who may ... or may not ... be willing to disclose the price points of a deal. The other people who have direct knowledge of a transaction are the real estate agents involved in the deal, and this is something they can use to their personal advantage and share within the confines of their agency but cannot disclose to others not party to the deal. It's absolutely illegal for an employee at a title company, bank, lender, or insurance agency who acquires knowledge of a real estate transaction to disclose that information to anybody else beyond a need to know for their business relationship, and it's illegal to use that information for their personal use.
The only party in the state that is required to have full disclosure is the County Assessor who gets a report from the buyer of the privileged information upon report of a title change. The Assessor cannot disclose the raw data that they have received to anybody, and it's a sensitive issue for anybody in contact with the information to use it to personal advantage.
Many times, a sales price may be inferred by looking at the public filings of a mortgage ... but it's an estimate. Who knows how much money was put down on the property? In my case, many RE deals were cash or there was no mortgage, so there is no information on file anywhere about the transaction other than to report the title change.
I think you'd have a very hard time supporting fraud charges if the seller willingly entered into a sales contract with an agent, even if that agent was the supplier of erroneous information about the price points. "due diligence" is still the responsibility of the seller to act on their behalf to get a professional appraisal; if they sell without obtaining one, it's their fault and not the buyer/agent's fault. Trust goes a long way and it is often abused as a matter of standard practice ....
You've obviously had some bad experiences with Wyoming real estate agents, and I don't blame you for letting it be known. I sold real estate for a couple years, about 30 years ago. I became a real estate agent because I wanted to invest in it and figured that would be a good way to learn a few things.
I bought the house I live in now from a new listing, the same day the seller signed the contract with the listing agent. I made a full-price offer within hours, simply because I was among the first to see the property and it was something I wanted. The seller thought if I was offering full price there must have been something shady going on. There wasn't. It wasn't a big deal to me whether I got the property or not, because I knew something else would come on the market, so I said I'd cancel the offer. The seller didn't want that either, but I can guarantee you that he still thought something shady was going on.
The truth is that I was in a position to see immediately what was being offered for sale, and if I saw something I wanted, I didn't *****-foot around. There was nothing underhanded going on with me nor my associates. I bought a few pieces of real estate and a retail business in the same manner -- a few too many, as I'd have been better off investing in just about anything else. I also bought out-of-state real estate and didn't see anything being done differently than it was being done in Wyoming.
I don't doubt that you've run into Realtors who didn't know what they were doing with ranch properties. That's a unique category of real estate sales and not many know much about it. In Wyoming, just as in most states, it doesn't take much to get a real estate sales license, and about the only difference between a license to sell it and a license to broker it is two years of experience. I had both licenses, and I can guarantee you that I could have passed the broker test when I took the sales agent test, and that took one week of study. To my knowledge, licensing requirements in Wyoming aren't much different than in any other state, and I believe reciprocity is shared by a few.
In short, real estate agents are just people. There are good ones and bad ones, honest ones and dishonest ones. That's true everywhere. The same could be said for lawyers and other professions where people act as fiduciaries for their clients.
And speaking of clients, one thing we must keep in mind is that most real estate agents have sellers as clients, and unless laws have changed since I was involved in real estate sales, an agent is obligated by law to work for his client. In some cases what's best for the seller isn't what's best for the buyer. In most deals I was involved with it was simply a case of bringing the buyer and seller together, but in one case I knew the seller would have sold a property for much less than the asking price, but when a buyer came along and wanted to make a full-price offer, by law I didn't have a choice. I couldn't suggest that he offer less. I couldn't say the property wasn't worth the asking price, not unless I wanted to lose my license and be sued by the seller.
If you want an agent to work for you in locating and buying a property, hire one to do so for you. Sign a contract with him. He's then your agent and is obligated by law to work on your behalf. I believe this is being done in many states now, but as far as I know it's not popular around here.
You've obviously had some bad experiences with Wyoming real estate agents, and I don't blame you for letting it be known. I sold real estate for a couple years, about 30 years ago. I became a real estate agent because I wanted to invest in it and figured that would be a good way to learn a few things.
I bought the house I live in now from a new listing, the same day the seller signed the contract with the listing agent. I made a full-price offer within hours, simply because I was among the first to see the property and it was something I wanted. The seller thought if I was offering full price there must have been something shady going on. There wasn't. It wasn't a big deal to me whether I got the property or not, because I knew something else would come on the market, so I said I'd cancel the offer. The seller didn't want that either, but I can guarantee you that he still thought something shady was going on.
The truth is that I was in a position to see immediately what was being offered for sale, and if I saw something I wanted, I didn't *****-foot around. There was nothing underhanded going on with me nor my associates. I bought a few pieces of real estate and a retail business in the same manner -- a few too many, as I'd have been better off investing in just about anything else. I also bought out-of-state real estate and didn't see anything being done differently than it was being done in Wyoming.
I don't doubt that you've run into Realtors who didn't know what they were doing with ranch properties. That's a unique category of real estate sales and not many know much about it. In Wyoming, just as in most states, it doesn't take much to get a real estate sales license, and about the only difference between a license to sell it and a license to broker it is two years of experience. I had both licenses, and I can guarantee you that I could have passed the broker test when I took the sales agent test, and that took one week of study. To my knowledge, licensing requirements in Wyoming aren't much different than in any other state, and I believe reciprocity is shared by a few.
In short, real estate agents are just people. There are good ones and bad ones, honest ones and dishonest ones. That's true everywhere. The same could be said for lawyers and other professions where people act as fiduciaries for their clients.
And speaking of clients, one thing we must keep in mind is that most real estate agents have sellers as clients, and unless laws have changed since I was involved in real estate sales, an agent is obligated by law to work for his client. In some cases what's best for the seller isn't what's best for the buyer. In most deals I was involved with it was simply a case of bringing the buyer and seller together, but in one case I knew the seller would have sold a property for much less than the asking price, but when a buyer came along and wanted to make a full-price offer, by law I didn't have a choice. I couldn't suggest that he offer less. I couldn't say the property wasn't worth the asking price, not unless I wanted to lose my license and be sued by the seller.
If you want an agent to work for you in locating and buying a property, hire one to do so for you. Sign a contract with him. He's then your agent and is obligated by law to work on your behalf. I believe this is being done in many states now, but as far as I know it's not popular around here.
In the interests of full disclosure on this thread ... and it's no secret, I've been on other forums here and made this clear:
I, too, held a real estate license years ago (in Colorado). In the interest of furthering my investment portfolio, I thought it was a benefit to get to know the inside of the business and worked part-time for a very competent agency headed up by an MAI/SRPA CPA/RE Broker. I learned first hand what is honest, competent, professional, and ethical dealings in the biz ... and what wasn't. The experience certainly helped me in my RE portfolio over the last 40 years.
I'd mention further associations with the industry ... both of my MIL's were top dollar producing agents in their respective careers, with one MIL owning her independent brokerage for over 25 years. My ex-wife was an agent, although not a successful one. In addition, I've maintained a close association with several of the region's top producing agents who are clients of another one of my business; they are valued resources and have been quite generous with their insights and expertise in my proposed ventures into residential and commercial RE.
I doubt I've seen every little shady or questionable practice in the industry, especially here in Wyoming ... but I have seen two consistent Wyoming practices:
1) A state-wide preponderance of less than professional service, if not flat out illegal or unethical practices, rendered to me, and
2) Less than professional service, if not flat out illegal or unethical, rendered to others coming into the area from markets where most RE agents and brokers are professional and competitive in their business operations.
The proof of the pudding, so to speak, for me is that I can come onto an anonymous site like this and discover that the warnings I've mentioned are, in fact, what is happening to folks like the OP in this thread. I had no specific knowledge of the details of the run-around they were getting by a Wyoming real estate agent, but hit it on the button on almost every facet of the shortcomings of the practice. Additionally, there are other threads requesting referrals to a realtor which are accompanied by similar stories of less than professional treatment ....
What's striking here is that if I'd have had one or two bad experiences with an agent here in Wyoming over the last two decades, I'd chalk that up to an isolated experience and leave it go. But that's not the case. I've spent many days traveling this state seeking investment properties, and I've attempted to deal with over a hundred rural RE agents ... and the deficiencies that I describe here characterize every one of them.
You read that correctly: a 100% failure rate on the agents I've tried to do business with in rural Wyoming, and not necessarily the small segment of ranch properties, but overall rural properties to include residences, small acreages, farms, recreational properties, and ranches.
Worse yet, back in the late 1980's and early 1990's I was looking at buying residential multi-family rental properties in Cheyenne. The RE agent and agency experiences I had here were similar to what I experienced for rural properties. I'll let them go unnamed, but some of the top producing agents in Cheyenne in the biggest sales volume agencies were some of the most inept agents I've ever dealt with ... and again, the deficiencies were similar to what I encountered with the rural agents. I've been burned several times and when I visited with the RE Commission here in town, their attitude is without question entirely supportive of the people who make a living in the business rather than seeking to discipline them when they screw over clients.
I don't intend to personalize this thread upon your shoulders, WyoNewk ... you may have had a great track record of honesty and ethics in the conduct of your business, and I have no basis to nor will challenge that in any way. But for the purposes of this forum and thread, I'd have to label you the exception to what I've found here in Wyoming. My hat's off to you if you have been financially successful treading through the swamp with so many shady dealers.
What's interesting here is that you attempt to excuse the professional behavior of others because the entrance bar is set so low. That's of no help to clients who are seeking honest professional assistance of a fee-paid service ... and a handsomely compensated service at that, given the low level of service that many provide for that commission at the end of the closing. Given the loose practice of dual agency or buyer's representatives in Wyoming, I wouldn't waste the ink on a contract to secure those services.
A real estate agent works for the seller, not the buyer. if you want some to represent you as a buyer then you must hire them to do just that.
Early in this thread someone suggested this without explaining why.
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