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While I agree that this is not typical, Bob Vila has probably never even heard of Dubois WY, much less built here LOL
Dubois is undergoing a building 'boom', in relative terms. There have been more homes built here in the last 5 years than in the prior 15 or 20. There are only 3 formal 'builders', not counting the new guys in town. Each of those 3 are only 3-4 guys; really, they are just framing crews who have expanded their repertoire. There is only 1-2 regular electricians here and 2 plumbers, since the main plumber's lead guy left a few months ago and set up his own shop. And the main plumber does heating too.
The resources are just not very available. All of the concrete crews come from Riverton, Lander, or further away, and that is 80 miles minimum. At least Dubois has 2 real lumber suppliers (one is small) and finally a full ACE hardware with decent stock, but that came in just the last year. Hauling in materials is a real cost and chore, as well as any rental construction equipment (unless you are 'hooked in' with a certain family here....!) Independent sub help is thin too. And all the construction of the new Tank Musem and it's several associated buildings, like the office and repair shop, have drained resources.... and that continues. Oh, and excavation was started just 3-4 week ago on a 26 unit apartment building.... more resource drain!
Trust me... I AM my own GC. (And have been so in the past, and am a contractor for over 20 years in a different industry.) And it is a LOT harder here than back in the Appalachians, which is not any big area for construction like the typical big city. I have been fortunate too hook up with a reliable excavator, but even he is so busy right now that I am going to have to do the house foundation backfill with rented equipment and some hired hands. It is sloooow to get things done here.
I know some hammer slammers from Star Valley spent most one summer in Dubois, building a house. being that far from home they put in lot of 10-12hour days. but they ate at cafes and had their travel trailers to sleep in.Not sure the whole deal if it was a friend or was just some big money that hired them.
A septic system installation will likely require a Wyoming State Engineer permit for a properly designed system for the site. Again, there are hidden costs to get the permit (such as an engineer's survey and report) and then the cost of doing the excavation and installation of the equipment to be anticipated. It's unlikely that this type of work will be within the scope of your skills and equipment ... again, this is one of the major points of the development process best left in the hands of an experienced contractor. You really want this done right so that the system doesn't contaminate your home site and works properly for your household generated waste disposal. Local soils and underground flows can create problems that you don't want to have to address after the fact. I've seen more than a few improperly done systems back up into basements or crawl spaces, which is more than a minor inconvenience for your residency.
This article about the steps involved installing septic systems on rural Wyoming properties might be further useful information.
I'm not in Wyoming but we've had issues with our septic system over the years and we really wouldn't want to mess around with it ourselves. Mess is the operative word when something goes wrong in your leach field.
Connecting to the City water meter might be easier. Have you talked to the town building office about what's involved? That would be a good starting point. Here's a link to the application to connect, which might also give you some insight into what's required and the costs involved (this application *may* be outdated, so, again, talk to the building office directly) https://townofdubois.org/DocumentCen...ap-Application
I'm not in Wyoming but we've had issues with our septic system over the years and we really wouldn't want to mess around with it ourselves. Mess is the operative word when something goes wrong in your leach field.
Friend in Colorado need to put in a new septic system on his ranch went to town to the County office to get the permits. they told him no we don't want people living out there move to town. He later sold out bought a nice ranch in Wyoming.
(as posted above): I'll disagree with a few things mentioned so far. I would not worry over insurance. There is no formal code like IRC in Dubois or most of Fremont County and new homes get insured all the time. If there is no code enforcement, then there is NO ONE to perform and sign off on and prove any compliance to IRC or any other code. (BTW I said IBC earlier, but it is IRC for residences.) So there is no way for any insurer to impose the idea that the home has to be code compliant. The insurer could inspect if they like; I am not aware of such a thing. Besides, state regulations and state and Federal FAIR plan acts assure you that you can get insurance somewhere.
This poster and I apparently have had very different experiences with the insurance underwriters in recent times. All insurance companies in the homeowners marketplace have the right to rate the risks and charge in accordance with their assessment of what they're asked to insure. They have the right to physically inspect a house and/or require proof of the standards to which the house was built; if the house doesn't satisfy the underwriters about the risk, the insurance company may decline to write a policy or they may charge an increased premium over a more routine policy issuance.
Case(s) in point, in my recent forays in to investing in some SFH's in the region ...
One house I looked at had the original 40 amp service upgraded to 100 amp and then, more recently, a 200 amp service and panel installed. But when I looked in to the electrical items in the house, I found that they'd left some of the older 30 amp fused panels in service for much of the house. Knowing that this is an item that was discontinued in the 1950's, along with the old insulated wiring ... I called my full lines insurance agency to see what they could do for homeowner's insurance. Out of the 6 lines they represent, only 1 company would even consider underwriting the house and the agent advised that my premium would be 3-4 times more expensive than if the fuse panels and wiring had been replaced with appropriate circuit breaker panels. I passed on this house ... as a rental property owner, I didn't want the risk of having a tenant in a house that I knew had a potentially less than safe electrical system, even if it was insured.
As well, when I talked to a local S&L about a 50% LTV loan on the house, they indicated that they would not lend on the house given the disclosure of the electrical defect ... even though they'd been installed IAW the codes at the time of installation. They referred me on to another division that would lend on "at risk" properties, and they wanted 60% down and 2% higher interest rate ... on a 30 yr AM, 7-yr call note.
Another house had a septic system that had a leach field installed at less than the required distance from the domestic well. Apparently, the trenchers ran in to a rocky area and moved a portion of the trench over several feet to reach a spot where they could excavate the trench. The change was noted on the leach field plat. Unnoticed by the well driller who drilled the well in the originally planned spot which was a bit too close to the leach field. The risk of bio contamination in the well now presents. My insurance company wanted way more testing than normal to verify that the well wasn't contaminated and they also wanted the well "disinfected" to be sure it was safe for human consumption. Again, the underwriters were willing to write a homeowner's policy at much higher rates than usual, but they were concerned for the long term that a clean well today might not be so in the future ... and health issues might strike the residents. The costs of drilling a new relocated well were prohibitive to the deal, and again, most insurance companies writing homeowner's coverage in the area declined to write a policy for the property. One company was willing to underwrite a policy ... at much higher cost than would normally be the case for the size and valuation of the property.
The bottom line is that insurance companies may decline to take on a risk situation or may write a policy at a rate that reflects their perception of the risk. Lenders have similar options. The last thing any of them want to be involved in is a health or safety risk situation which puts them at an unusually higher than normal risk scenario.
For the OP, this is just another area of concern that you may run in to as the GC of your house. In a town such as Dubois where code compliance appears to be a non-issue with the local Z&P department, that doesn't mean that other entities with a vested interest in the health and safety of the structure won't have their own standards to be complied with in view of the risk that they are taking for a fee. My advice: check with your insurance agent about what they require to insure your house before you need to have a policy.
PS: I've earned my Real Estate license decades ago when I got into RE investing in SFH's, and I've also been a contractor and sub-contractor in residential, commercial, industrial, retail, hospitals, red and white meat food processing plants, airports, chemical, and pharmaceutical facilities. My brief foray into taking on most of the responsibilities of a GC educated me that doing so brought way more problems to the table than any slight benefits I may have gained by doing that job by myself. It didn't take long to discover that I did not have the working knowledge of the applicable codes to the extent needed to adequately evaluate all the work in progress or completed by others ... and trusting that highly recommended sub-contractors to do all their work IAW the codes was a mistake. Code inspectors caught the errors after the fact and they turned into some protracted battles and legal wrangling to get the sub-contractors to re-do all their work properly.
Another example of how things can go astray when you're overseeing work that's out of your area of expertise ... Our local airstrip manager got grant monies to build out some new concrete ramp areas and erect new hangars. The grants required Davis-Bacon wages and union workers, and the bids were put out to qualified concrete sub-contractors with demonstrable experience in doing airport concrete ramps. In due course, the sub did the dirt prep work and set the forms, then poured and power troweled out the concrete. All looked honky-dory for the next month and the sub was paid in full for their project. But by the next month, the concrete started to spall, and within another month when a few freeze/thaw cycle days presented, the concrete was breaking up. What happened? the sub accepted the first few slump tested loads of concrete, and then accepted that the supplier was using the same formulation for the balance of the project. While it is speculation at this point that the sub was in collusion with the concrete batch plant to use lesser quality concrete for the rest of the project, the proof was in the failed performance of the ramp areas, even before they had the traffic of airplanes taxiing to the hangars. The airport manager, a part-timer, had only stayed around long enough for the first few loads of concrete to be delivered, so he had no knowledge if slump tests had been certified for the rest of the project ... nor, as it turned out, did he have any real expertise in large area concrete flatwork but relied solely on the honesty of the sub-contractor to install concrete in compliance with the contract specifications. You can see where this is going ... a GC who didn't really know what he was supervising, and a sub-contractor who cut corners to make a bigger profit. Lots of finger pointing ensued, and it took over a year before the sub-contractor was ordered by the courts to honor his contract and install concrete to the specs of the contract. But the contractor had long ago spent the money and his bonding company wasn't going to cover the fraud of the under spec concrete when it was lab tested and found to be way under the spec'ed formulation; ie, the sub-contractor had signed off his completion statement that the project had been done in accordance with the terms of the contract and billing records from the batch plant showed that the sub had accepted concrete batches that were underspec. After another year, it was apparent that the sub was not able to perform and he declared bankruptcy. It took over 4 years to get the defective concrete ripped out, the site prep'ed again, and another sub-contractor to do the work in a proper fashion. Part of the hold-up to get this project re-done was finding the funds to pay another sub-contractor because there was no money coming back from the first one (bonding covered errors and omissions, not fraud).
My point here is that there's a lot more than meets the eye to be properly done under expert guidance to get these types of projects done properly. Small errors have a way of compounding in to big ones and expensive headaches very quickly if you don't know what you don't know. This applies to all aspects of bringing a raw site to a completed habitable structure, insurance, and financing.
For those of you who have built a house as your own GC and are satisfied with the results, more power to you.
Here's the rub ... I have a friend who recently purchased a house that had been built by the owner/GC. In good faith, she assumed that all had been done correctly ... and as a cash buyer, she did not need or know about having professional inspections or competent trades sub-contractors inspect the property. Well ... it turns out the structure was a disaster. Poorly hung but heavily coated over drywall hid a number of major defects in the house ... wiring and electrical improperly done, plumbing that was leaking, and an overhanging portion of the house (built up against a hillside with a walk-out lower level) that had seen numerous roof leaks and the framing had dry-rotted out. In short, a sizable portion of the upper two stories of the house was not structurally sound and the exterior siding and interior finish work all had to be ripped out to expose the rotted out framing. She's had a crew out re-doing this portion of the house and the estimated 2-week project has uncovered so much more extensive dry-rot that it's been over 2 months of work and the framing is still not completed. The hidden damage now appears to be so extensive that much of the interior has had to be gutted to expose the problems. Given that the roof had been leaking, I've mentioned to her that she might want to have a roofing contractor look at the roof to verify it's integrity. My gut tells me that if the water ingress was so bad for so long as to rot out a substantial portion of the structure, that the roof area may also have damage. Her bargain house in a rural area on a 30 acre pond may yet prove to be a big money pit.
OTOH ... just because a GC has built a house in an area of code enforcement and there's a signed off inspection sheet for the premises ... doesn't mean that the structure was actually built properly in accordance with the specs. I've long ago related on this forum my less-than-pleasant experience with Medema Homes and a house I bought pre-build in Williamsburg Filing #1 at the Ken-Caryl Ranch. Absent the help I had in identifying the serious defects in the new house construction from sub-contractors hired by me, I'd have not known about all the problems that presented. Due diligence on your own behalf in the construction and real estate game is essential, IMO.
Good write-up Sprit. My takeaway from all you wrote is that regardless of whether the house or other work is inspected or supposedly built to code, or regardless of whether the house or other work is done by an licensed GC or other licensed contractor, or by the homeowner, there can be problems. Some contractors are very good and thorough and others are not. I can also write up some real disasters we have found in our work when called in to resolve problems, in systems designed and installed by licensed contractors.
Inspectors only catch so much. No body has x-ray vision. Work is only inspected at certain phases, and much can get away from inspectors. I have related the story here of a situation a few years ago in Fairfax County VA where the inspectors were so overloaded with new consteuction that they were being assigned something like 45-50 inspections per day.... that gave them an average of 15 minutes per inspection, including driving time! There were a lot of 'drive-by' inspections going on.
So going back to the point of insurance for self-built homes in Dubois.... Official inspections are not going to do anything for the insurer as the inspections do not occur. That leaves the insurer the option to inspect. How often does that occur? I see no info presented on that question in this discussion so far, and personally do not know that answer. It sounds like your own careful inspection revealed the mixed wiring situation with some old panels in place, and your honestly and probable (and wise) concern for the insurer to reject a claim after a fire from such a mixed system is what brought this all out, not any inspection by the insurer.....???
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And in no case do I see in the above write-up that you could not get insurance or financing, just that it would be more expensive.
But that is not what we are talking about here. The OP is discussing a new build. As for electrical work in WY, any new electrical build in an area outside of the larger cities or towns that have elected to adopt a code and conduct inspections can be done by the owner. The process is to:
- Start an account on the State Fire Marshal's website
- Apply for a permit as the owner and pay the fees
--- You can elect to pay for a mandatory inspection or not
--- The local power company is notified of the build, and you work with them for a meter to be set-up
- Build once you have the permit
- As info, the State Fire Marshal's site has a good set of guides for what to do and not to do to be compliant with up to date NEC (National Electrical Code).
If you elect to have a mandatory inspection, which is mandatory to state inspector(s) covering your region, then they inspect. I do not know at what phase they inspect (like rough-in or final).
If you do not elect to have a mandatory inspection then the state inspector(s) have the option to inspect within 30 days. The reality is that they never perform these optional inspections, at least in Fremont County.
So what do the insurers do with a situation where the electrical inspector elects not to inspect? I have been meaning to call State Farm for insurance on this garage just outside of Dubois now that it is nearing completion, where I did my own wiring, and worked to NEC, but have been busy. This discussion is prompting me to do so soon. I'll report back and let everyone know if there were any issues.
Good write-up Sprit. My takeaway from all you wrote is that regardless of whether the house or other work is inspected or supposedly built to code, or regardless of whether the house or other work is done by an licensed GC or other licensed contractor, or by the homeowner, there can be problems. Some contractors are very good and thorough and others are not. I can also write up some real disasters we have found in our work when called in to resolve problems, in systems designed and installed by licensed contractors.
Looks like we're on the same page re the possible occurrence of "disasters" in the course of all this construction work with so many trades involved to a project completion.
Inspectors only catch so much. No body has x-ray vision. Work is only inspected at certain phases, and much can get away from inspectors. I have related the story here of a situation a few years ago in Fairfax County VA where the inspectors were so overloaded with new consteuction that they were being assigned something like 45-50 inspections per day.... that gave them an average of 15 minutes per inspection, including driving time! There were a lot of 'drive-by' inspections going on.
That's apparently what happened to my new house in Ken-Caryl ranch. A fully signed off inspection sheet on a house that wasn't near completion on multiple trades. It wasn't a case of defects, it was signed off on work that obviously hadn't even been completed. It looked like somebody stopped work at the end of a shift and didn't return to that house for the completion of the work.
So going back to the point of insurance for self-built homes in Dubois.... Official inspections are not going to do anything for the insurer as the inspections do not occur. That leaves the insurer the option to inspect. How often does that occur? I see no info presented on that question in this discussion so far, and personally do not know that answer. It sounds like your own careful inspection revealed the mixed wiring situation with some old panels in place, and your honestly and probable (and wise) concern for the insurer to reject a claim after a fire from such a mixed system is what brought this all out, not any inspection by the insurer.....???
I can only speak to the recent insurance experiences I've had which do not include Dubois. My bet is that the insurance agents/agencies that are doing business in the area have sought out the easiest ways to get their earned commissions. Do they work with insurance underwriters who aren't sticklers for risk reviews? The only way to find out is to start asking for quotes and see what they require to bind a policy.
My main insurance agent/agency tells me that any house older than 30 years, or a new construction house will automatically be scheduled for an on-site building inspection by their contracted "home inspectors" to verify their risk parameters for a new homeowner's policy. The inspection may take place prior to issuing the policy, or at some time after binding a policy but subject to review/cost adjustment/decline to issue based upon what they may find in that property report. Hence my efforts to do an on-site physical inspection as best I can of the houses that I've been looking at to invest in. Not worth my time or energy to buy a place that is going to be headaches for the house and the insurance company. If need be, I'll call in a tradesman to check things over before I'll even write up a contract offer.
FWIW, my WY ranch residence came up for an "inspection" this year for the homeowner's policy renewal. It wasn't triggered by any activity, I was told it was an automatic requirement from the underwriters because it was 6 years since the last on-site insurance inspection. I was notified by my agent that an inspector would be calling to schedule a visit at my convenience and it was implied that the inspection was mandatory for the homeowner's policy. I don't know if he had any specific items to check for, but he was very concerned about my wood-burning cookstove in my living/dining room.
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And in no case do I see in the above write-up that you could not get insurance or financing, just that it would be more expensive.
I've previously written up on C-D some of my experiences where insurance companies have declined to write a policy on houses with various defects, such as mold problems due to in-house grow operations. I'm not real good at detecting this type of problem absent some test kits, but Mrs Sun can walk into a place and smell mold within the first few seconds ... and she's usually pretty good at finding where the mold problem is in a house. She's shown me more than a few times the black stuff in walls, cabinets, sub-flooring, and so forth.
As well, my insurance agency has repeatedly advised when they've bumped up against an issue where numerous insurance companies won't take on a risk and refuse to write a policy. It's been the task of the agency to then find an underwriter who would take on the risk ... for a price. But the difference in writing a homeowners policy for $8,000 rather than a $2,000 policy can be a game changer in potential cash flow in a rental property for me.
Yes, price reflects perceived risk and the marketplace. But at one point or another, price is a way to say "we don't want this business" rather than to go through the hassles of a business falling under the heavy hands of consumer regulatory authorities.
But that is not what we are talking about here. The OP is discussing a new build. As for electrical work in WY, any new electrical build in an area outside of the larger cities or towns that have elected to adopt a code and conduct inspections can be done by the owner. The process is to:
- Start an account on the State Fire Marshal's website
- Apply for a permit as the owner and pay the fees
--- You can elect to pay for a mandatory inspection or not
--- The local power company is notified of the build, and you work with them for a meter to be set-up
- Build once you have the permit
- As info, the State Fire Marshal's site has a good set of guides for what to do and not to do to be compliant with up to date NEC (National Electrical Code).
If you elect to have a mandatory inspection, which is mandatory to state inspector(s) covering your region, then they inspect. I do not know at what phase they inspect (like rough-in or final).
If you do not elect to have a mandatory inspection then the state inspector(s) have the option to inspect within 30 days. The reality is that they never perform these optional inspections, at least in Fremont County.
So there are options for a homeowner/GC to get inspections that may well work to their benefit when dealing with insurance and lenders, although Fremont County apparently doesn't follow through on this. Why would this be? are the inspectors underfunded/understaffed so that they cannot provide the services that the clients are paying for? From my perspective, this is a potential "red flag" for an underwriter or lender to consider when they rate their risk and pricing.
So what do the insurers do with a situation where the electrical inspector elects not to inspect? I have been meaning to call State Farm for insurance on this garage just outside of Dubois now that it is nearing completion, where I did my own wiring, and worked to NEC, but have been busy. This discussion is prompting me to do so soon. I'll report back and let everyone know if there were any issues.
I look forward to what you find out. Perhaps there are other companies doing biz in the area that may be worth checking out?
I'm not in Wyoming but we've had issues with our septic system over the years and we really wouldn't want to mess around with it ourselves. Mess is the operative word when something goes wrong in your leach field.
Connecting to the City water meter might be easier. Have you talked to the town building office about what's involved? That would be a good starting point. Here's a link to the application to connect, which might also give you some insight into what's required and the costs involved (this application *may* be outdated, so, again, talk to the building office directly) https://townofdubois.org/DocumentCen...ap-Application
Might want to consider a subdivision instead.
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