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The ancient Egyptians are 90% identical to moderns, except that there is more "black" in them now do to the Arab slave trade.
They are a very mixed race, as Eurasians started back migrating to North Africa in the stone ages. They still have a great deal of native African "E," but this does not mean "black" as North Africans evolved on a similar latitude, and look like Middle Easterners.
Tut's family, including Tiye, had European blood types and red hair. The depiction of her as "black" comes from wood darkening.
Professor P. F. Ceccaldi, with a research team behind him,studied some hairs which were removed from the mummy's scalp. Ramesses II was90 years-old when he died, and his hair had turned white. Ceccaldi determinedthat the reddish-yellow colour of the mummy's hair had been brought about byits being dyed with a dilute henna solution; it proved to be an example of thecosmetic attentions of the embalmers. However, traces of the hair's originalcolour (in youth), remain in the roots, even into advanced old age. Microscopicexaminations proved that the hair roots contained traces of natural redpigments, and that therefore, during his youth, Ramesses II had beenred-haired. It was concluded that these red pigments did not result from thehair somehow fading, or otherwise altering [/SIZE][SIZE=3]post-mortem,[/SIZE][SIZE=3] but did indeedrepresent Ramesses' natural hair colour. Ceccaldi also studied a cross-sectionof the hairs, and he determined from their oval shape, that Ramesses had been"cymotrich" (wavy-haired). Finally, he stated that such a combinationof features showed that Ramesses had been a "leucoderm"(white-skinned person). [Balout, et al. Scientific analysis of his (Ramses II) has confirmed that inhis youth, the king was indeed a natural redhead. (Tyldesley 2001).
Thuya's hair is luxuriant and the same auburn color (asTiye's). The hair is naturally auburn. (El Mahdy, 2001
Seti I had red hair (Roberts, 2004
]The entire "black Egypt" thing was created to address self esteem needs. Everyone has seen depictions of the ancients, and know what they looked like. A few do look strikingly "black," a vast majority do not, and Afrocentrist always try to pass off depictions of Nubians, Pharoah in symbolic blackness, etc.
Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transitionin this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion ofAfro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.
and recent human craniofacial dimensions supports thepicture documented by genetics that the extension of Neolithic agriculture fromthe Near East westward to Europe and across North Africawas accomplished by a process of demic diffusion (11–15)....
Whowere the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic throughpostdynastic peoples
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16331657
JDIRISH 2006
the dynastic period is likely an indigenous continuation of the Naqadaculture, 4) there is support for overall biological uniformity through thedynastic period, and 5) this uniformity may continue into postdynastic times.
In any event, Ceccaldi's work is far from being the widely accepted theory of the race of ancient Egyptians (most scientists in the field will tell you that's it's difficult, if not impossible using modern tools, to discern the race of the ancient Egyptians as we understand race today.
But on a basic level, and acknowledging the difficulties of ascertaining the ancient Egyptians' race based on modern DNA tools, why would the ancient Egyptians depict themselves, in part (again, I'm not claiming that the ancient Egyptians were all one people/race and that there was no mixing along racial lines), as having some strong African features if there was no connection?
Also, reddish tells me nothing, particularly as Europeans are not the only population known to have reddish hair. In fact, there are African groups, particularly in east Africa, where reddish hair isn't uncommon. Furthermore, embalming fluids and other chemicals will straighten curly or kinky hair.
As far as wood darkening goes for understanding Tiye's bust, I'll repeat that I and others don't read much into skin color in ancient Egyptian paintings/statues/etc. Rather, racial features are more informative to me. And the simple truth of the matter is that the statues we see (and this particularly goes for the earlier period statues) do not generally have European features. Now, they don't all have stereotypical west African features either, but that's besides the point as Egypt is in east Africa, and many of the features we see are similar to modern day peoples of places like Somalia, Ethiopia, etc., not necessarily (or not exclusively) to the Arab world. But for those who will use this wood darkening argument, note that wood darkening won't turn carvings pitch black as some of these carvings are (see some of the carvings of Tut found in his tomb).
Still, those who go out of their way to completely dismiss the possibility of black African ancestry in ancient Egyptians (for instance, you write the Egyptians are blacker today than in ancient times solely due to Arab slave trading), while refusing to acknowledge the connections between Nubia and Kemet, puzzles me greatly. As many Egyptologists will tell you, Nubians and Egyptians, though they share a complex history of good and bad times, of peace and war, did intermarry, etc.; and this doesn't even get into the Nubian 25th dynasty of ancient Egypt.
I'll ask a question then, what would one consider a person like Hoda Kotb racially? There is a reason why I'm asking this.
I honestly couldn't pinpoint anything with any certainty, except to say that she looks like she has some Arab ancestry in addition to being mixed with something else.
In modern American terms, Hoda Kotb would probably be considered mixed race with mainly Semitic, Nilo-saharan, and Cu****ic heritage.
In short, she would probably be considered Black. Moreso than many Egyptians, modern and ancient, or most Libyans and other North Africans. That said, I don't think that she would have looked out of place by any means in ancient Egypt, but the same could be said of 'White' North African and 'Black' sub-saharan types.
In modern American terms, Hoda Kotb would probably be considered mixed race with mainly Semitic, Nilo-saharan, and Cu****ic heritage.
In short, she would probably be considered Black. Moreso than many Egyptians, modern and ancient, or most Libyans and other North Africans. That said, I don't think that she would have looked out of place by any means in ancient Egypt, but the same could be said of 'White' North African and 'Black' sub-saharan types.
I don't think anyone would care if Hoda Kotb publicly identified as African American (even though she technically is).
There was a segment a few years back on the "Today Show" where they had kid impersonators trying to imitate the crew and I remembered that they had a young Black girl represent Hoda Kobt. She didn't seem to care that a Black girl represented her even though most of the crew had White kids representing them with the impersonations.
None that have not been completely debunked. We can go into the limb length nonsense....the DNA tribes nonsense...etc. There is a broad and vast scientific consensus that Eurasian people's have been back-migrating into Africa since the stone age. I posted a smattering of what is out there. And again, even the "E" haplotypes do not entail black. Skin color is largely determined by latitude, and North Africans evolved on similar latitudes to Middle Easterners. This is the meaning behind Keita's work, who Afrocentrists strangely think support them. He never said that the Egyptians were black, just that they were as authentically "African" as blacks.
But if you have some specific evidence to post, post it and I will be happy to debunk it.
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Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident
In any event, Ceccaldi's work is far from being the widely accepted theory of the race of ancient Egyptians
I have posted over a dozen studies and am familiar with dozens more.
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Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident
(most scientists in the field will tell you that's it's difficult, if not impossible using modern tools, to discern the race of the ancient Egyptians as we understand race today.
To an extent this is true because all race is a construct. It is also a bit of a copout which allows the Afrocentrists to force a draw when they know they have lost. We may not be able to force modern racial identities on them, but we know that they are overwhelmingly the same people that they have always been, and most of them could not be classified, as Bernal himself phrased it, as "usefully black."
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Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident
But on a basic level, and acknowledging the difficulties of ascertaining the ancient Egyptians' race based on modern DNA tools,
It isn't difficult at all. Modern scientists build genetic maps of modern populations to determine when the mixing occurred, and universally agree on heavy mixing in the stone ages. The Afrocentric trick is to claim that the massive admixture of Eurasian haplotypes comes from relatively modern times, when in fact they are universally regarded to have entered in pre-historic times.
Or you could just read the science that I posted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident
why would the ancient Egyptians depict themselves, in part (again, I'm not claiming that the ancient Egyptians were all one people/race and that there was no mixing along racial lines), as having some strong African features if there was no connection?
No one said that there is no connection, but in any event, most depictions of Egyptians do not show them as black. Those of us interested in history have seen hundreds, if not thousands of depictions. A handful look Nubian, and even a lot of these are misinterpretations (again, Tiye is known to have red hair and European blood type).
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident
Also, reddish tells me nothing, particularly as Europeans are not the only population known to have reddish hair. In fact, there are African groups, particularly in east Africa, where reddish hair isn't uncommon. Furthermore, embalming fluids and other chemicals will straighten curly or kinky hair.
It is far more common amongst Eurasians than Africans, and many of those African groups color their hair with henna or cow Urine. Finally, many horn of Africa groups, and even those down to the lakes region, have some Eurasian admixture. Without knowing too much about it, this might be why some African groups have red hair. I would have to see the specific group to research it further. If you want to give me the info on the specific ethnic identity of these groups, be my guest and I will take it up, but for now, it remains pretty good evidence of admixture.
The chemicals detected in the hair of Ramses are natural, and have nothing to do with embalming fluid. Also, they had European blood types.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident
As far as wood darkening goes for understanding Tiye's bust, I'll repeat that I and others don't read much into skin color in ancient Egyptian paintings/statues/etc.
And that is fine for your own individual reality, but anyone claiming that the Egyptians were once a different race have the burden of proof on them. So you can ignore it if you like, but it doesn't get the ball down the field at all.
Not all depictions of the Egyptians were realistic, but idealized...but that does not explain why a black people would largely depict themselves as a non-black people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident
Rather, racial features are more informative to me. And the simple truth of the matter is that the statues we see (and this particularly goes for the earlier period statues) do not generally have European features.
No one said that they did largely have European features. Egyptian have far more North African and Middle Eastern input, although a good amount of European is represented in their DNA as well. They look like North Africans and Middle Easterners because they are.
Tut's family, for whatever reason, is known to have a European blood type. Why? I have no idea. Ramses had about as Semetic looking nose as can be. Perhaps Middle Easterners also share those blood types. I don't know. What I can say, is that they are not African.
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Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident
Now, they don't all have stereotypical west African features either,
Correct! Exactly right.
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Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident
but that's besides the point as Egypt is in east Africa, and many of the features we see are similar to modern day peoples of places like Somalia, Ethiopia, etc., not necessarily (or not exclusively) to the Arab world.
A) Because they also have Eurasian admixture, and
B) Because they evolved in Situ to look more like Eurasians, since they are not, after all, in a tropical climate.
But all of this is nonsense, because the people that the ancient Egyptians most resembled are modern Egyptians, which we know from genetics, skull studies, etc. that they actually are.
Again, if someone is claiming that they were once a different people, then they have the burden of proof. The fact that Ethiopians and Somalis carry some Caucasian features is not evidence that the Egyptians came from Ethiopians and Somalis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident
But for those who will use this wood darkening argument, note that wood darkening won't turn carvings pitch black as some of these carvings are (see some of the carvings of Tut found in his tomb).
What are "some of these carving?" There is one famous carving of Tiye that appears to show her as very dark. We know that this is not typical of any one else in her family (and since they were incestuous, they were all related). We know that they had European blood types, red hair, and that Ramses had a hooked nose. The most realistic depiction of Tut shows him as being brown...as most Middle Easterners and North Africans are. It stands to reason that Tiye was not a Nubian. If she was, she was a Nubian with auburn hair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident
Still, those who go out of their way to completely dismiss the possibility of black African ancestry in ancient Egyptians (for instance, you write the Egyptians are blacker today than in ancient times solely due to Arab slave trading), while refusing to acknowledge the connections between Nubia and Kemet, puzzles me greatly.
What I have stated is a known scientific fact and had been corroborated in half a dozen studies. So don't let it puzzle you...read the science.
As many Egyptologists will tell you, Nubians and Egyptians, though they share a complex history of good and bad times, of peace and war, did intermarry, etc.; and this doesn't even get into the Nubian 25th dynasty of ancient Egypt.
And I am sure that there were a few other Nubian dynasties in there somewhere. I even considered the possibility of the 18th until I saw it debunked by science. But the fact is, a Nubian dynasty here and there, or the use of Nubian mercenaries, does not make Ancient Egypt a black civilization, any more than our 12% of African Americans and Barrack Obama make us a black civilization in America.
We have to stay on topic here and not have argument drift. As I said, they were a mixed race. The fact that there were Nubians there amongst all of the others does not make them all black.
Last edited by cachibatches; 01-20-2015 at 03:15 PM..
I have a really big grudge with Afrocentric people attempting to claim Egypt. Why? We are putting so much time and energy arguing about the race of a bunch of weirdos who practiced incest, and letting our actual undeniable self made cultures die due to neglect. No thanks. Black people let us pay more attention to the Nok civilization, The Kingdom of Ghana, Mali, Songhai and what happened when we took over Timbuktu. Let us pay attention to our ancestors' religions and beliefs. Not some ethnically ambiguous people where we have no tangible proof to apply blackness.
With that being said, anyone who denies that black ancient Egyptians existed is intentionally being dishonest. It is obvious their were black Egyptians and not because of just slavery. However since people are hooked on denying this fact, black people need to let it go and place their interest elsewhere.
I have a really big grudge with Afrocentric people attempting to claim Egypt. Why? We are putting so much time and energy arguing about the race of a bunch of weirdos who practiced incest, and letting our actual undeniable self made cultures die due to neglect. No thanks. Black people let us pay more attention to the Nok civilization, The Kingdom of Ghana, Mali, Songhai and what happened when we took over Timbuktu. Let us pay attention to our ancestors' religions and beliefs. Not some ethnically ambiguous people where we have no tangible proof to apply blackness.
With that being said, anyone who denies that black ancient Egyptians existed is intentionally being dishonest. It is obvious their were black Egyptians and not because of just slavery. However since people are hooked on denying this fact, black people need to let it go and place their interest elsewhere.
Since most African American don't know there exact ethnic group or tribe, you can't blame them for having a pan-African viewpoint. It's different than other ethnic groups like Chinese Americans or Italian Americans because they know exactly where they come from. Just be happy that there are Blacks who are indeed interested in African history. By the way, people can choose whatever they want to be interested in. If there are people who are interested in Egyptian history then let them be interested in it! I'm sick of people telling Blacks what they can and cannot study. Why don't you worry about yourself and leave the Afrocentrists alone.
Egyptians were a mixed race people. Dark Nubians, brown skinned near/Middle Easterners and southern Europeans all left their mark on Egypt at various levels of society.
It does bother me that so many people are quick to point out that "they aren't black." It's like some researcher, 3,000 years from now saying that "Americans" were brown. With lots of mixing, we may end up a brown nation, but lots of races would have contributed to that. Since west, central and southern African history isn't covered as much in school books, the Battle for Egypt looks like a semi-successful attempt to convince everyone that black people have no history and weren't apart of history prior to the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade.
And the movie depictions....geez. I can buy Yul Brynner as an Egyptian, but Christian Bale....really. I think Denzel Washington should play William Wallace in the Braveheart remake. I'm sure no one would bat an eye..lol!
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