Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You can paint whatever picture you want with accurate data... Spin Doctors get paid big buck for doing this.
--
And as hinted at, if we are in that dire straits, the gov't should get out of foreign wars and supporting foriegn governments. There is plenty of fat to cut, before we resort to cutting PROMISES that were made to Public Workers.
I remember applying and accepting a work contract. It had pay rates (grades) and benefits listed. It didn't say, if we felt like it, you will get a pension. It was spelled out line by line, word for word. In fact, if I left before 10 years of service I wouldn't get a penny in retirement (vesting period). Now that I have 16 years in, they are looking at eliminating our pensions. I can't wind the clock back and pick another career at this point. Where was my 'exaggerated' salary back in 2006/2007 when private workers were raking it in? I stayed the course and stuck it out. Now that it has crashed those that didn't prepare are jealous. I didn't see this when they were making 2-4 times as much per year as I was. And I didn't jump over when the grass looked greener on the other side either.
I agree some changes should be made to stop the abuses - but not at the expense of every hard-working and honest employee. I noticed that Alaska has a multi-tiered pension system based on hire date. To me that seems the fairest way to make most changes. This way, you are not changing the rules midstream.
Out of curisoity, without collective bargaining and one voice to negotiate with, does this mean every employee will negotiate their own contract independantly?
(1) While I agree that the federal government spending is out of control, we are talking about STATE workers. Unfortunately the feds run a deficit but the individual states cannot.
(2) To answer you question, yes, each employee is free to accept a job with a given pay and benefits. It is how 90+ percent of the private sector work force is employed. It is called employment at will and either party, employer or employee, can terminate it at any time (with some legal exceptions of course).
Even the left-wing hero FDR understood:
National Federation of Federal Employees in 1937, Roosevelt reasoned:
"All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...
Out of curisoity, without collective bargaining and one voice to negotiate with, does this mean every employee will negotiate their own contract independantly?
nahhh...mean bend over an take it! there will be no contracts at all.....just read a job app. that the applicant has to sign a waiver that you are being hired at will...it states "I understand and agree that, if hired, my employment is for no definite period and may be terminated at any time with or without notice or cause."
47% of Americans already don't pay federal income tax. And the US has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world at over 37%.
They may not pay federal, but there are payroll and investment taxes, along with state and local.
The corporate tax is set at 37%, but very few corporations pay that amount. The average is more like 15%, while many pay nothing at all.
And cry me a river when it comes to the rich paying more taxes than in the past. Well, that's because their pretax incomes have risen so damn fast. Are you saying we should keep cutting taxes for the rich as their incomes keep rising and rising and rising?
Yeah, that'll do wonders for the wealth distribution gap we already have in this country. Its greater than 1929 when the bottom fell out. The larger the gap, the more unstable the economy.
Ironically enough, the income distribution gap is greatest in the bible belt states. Seems those folks have a habit of voting against their own best interests.
Just about the only country left where the income gap is greater than ours is Luxembourg.
But, as a private sector employee, if you don't like your job or your working conditions, you can go find a comparable job at another business- in theory. I know times are tough, but it is not always the case.
What is a teacher supposed to do? Private schools pay even less, so that's not a viable option. Where is a paramedic or firefighter supposed to go? Public workers NEED collective bargaining rights because they have virtually no other options for employment other than the very narrow field in which they work.
If your heart is no longer in teaching... have you thought about a career change?
I've posted before about a good friend of mine had always wanted to be a teacher... he is also a self taught mechanic.
He left teaching and opened his own shop 15 years ago and couldn't be happier... the district eliminated all the Vocational Ed courses. He gets lots of work from former students and colleagues... he said the biggest change is being in charge... He sinks or swims based on his ability to compete in the market place and has done real well be his shop puts out quality work.
An area where I lived has almost an all volunteer FD... lots of dedicated people that really like what they do...
I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned many public workers have virtually no other options for employment and having limited options will always be a factor.
Have you thought about consulting, editing text books, teaching SAT prep courses?
They may not pay federal, but there are payroll and investment taxes, along with state and local.
The corporate tax is set at 37%, but very few corporations pay that amount. The average is more like 15%, while many pay nothing at all.
And cry me a river when it comes to the rich paying more taxes than in the past. Well, that's because their pretax incomes have risen so damn fast. Are you saying we should keep cutting taxes for the rich as their incomes keep rising and rising and rising?
Yeah, that'll do wonders for the wealth distribution gap we already have in this country. Its greater than 1929 when the bottom fell out. The larger the gap, the more unstable the economy.
Ironically enough, the income distribution gap is greatest in the bible belt states. Seems those folks have a habit of voting against their own best interests.
Just about the only country left where the income gap is greater than ours is Luxembourg.
You're right. Instead of reducing federal (and state) spending, we should continue to increase the size of government and soak the successful producers of wealth and redistribute the money to federal and state workers in even more generous salary and benefit packages. Surely that will grow strengthen the national economy and keep America competitive internationally.
You're right. Instead of reducing federal (and state) spending, we should continue to increase the size of government and soak the successful producers of wealth and redistribute the money to federal and state workers in even more generous salary and benefit packages. Surely that will grow strengthen the national economy and keep America competitive internationally.
nobody is proposing more benefits for public employees. nobody is proposing larger government. we're proposing less government spending on unnecessary things so that public employees can keep their benefits.
have we not already established that these public employees do not get generous salaries or benefits? we do have salaries and benefits, but they're nothing special, just something stable.
(1) While I agree that the federal government spending is out of control, we are talking about STATE workers. Unfortunately the feds run a deficit but the individual states cannot.
(2) To answer you question, yes, each employee is free to accept a job with a given pay and benefits. It is how 90+ percent of the private sector work force is employed. It is called employment at will and either party, employer or employee, can terminate it at any time (with some legal exceptions of course).
Even the left-wing hero FDR understood:
National Federation of Federal Employees in 1937, Roosevelt reasoned:
"All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...
(1) - That is too simplistic a view - State Budgets are enhanced by the Federal Government. The county I live in gets millions upon millions of grant and other money from the Federal government. States could get more, the Feds had more. In fact, a lot of funding has been cut. Again, our 'taxes' support the Fderal spending even though they can run a deficit. Policy is also directed by deficit spending.
(2) - Most of us did except a job with given pay and benefits. I have done my part of the contract (years of service), now that it is time to 'pay the piper', they want to take it away... I took an initial pay cut, but the benefits (and pension) made up for it, I may not have left private industry to take the job if the benefits were not there.
1937 was along time ago and working conditions were horrific back then.... Not exactly a good example for getting rid of collective bargaining. (I can think of a bunch of better examples....) It wasn't until 1938 that the national minimum wage law was enacted. I could get into workplace safety rules and workman's comp, if you need any further examples. This is not an attack on Roosevelt... But instead the working conditions of the time -
On a personal note, it is ironic that I always viewed collective bargaining as a neccessary evil and now I feel that I must defend this neccessary evil.
It seems the American dream is no more, you can spend your life doing all the right things but never have a chance to feel comfortable unless you are an executive of a huge corporation and paid for personality and ruthlessness.
That's not true... if it was, how can you explain people emigrating to this county with nothing and in one generation have children that are Doctors, Engineers and Lawyers?
I became very close to a family where the parents emigrated from Vietnam in the 80's... they had nothing. Father had an old station wagon and picked up some well used gardening equipment that people were getting rid of and started doing any kind of yard work, hauling he could find... when more labor was needed, his wife and kids worked.
He still has his business and today each of his children achieved the American dream... Doctor, Engineer and Lawyer. These are people that didn't speak a work of English.
The Engineer told me, his parents said over and over again... you can be somebody in America and your mother and I work night and day so you will have a better life... listen to your teachers and do more than they ask and you will succeed and make your family proud... and all 3 have.
I remember applying and accepting a work contract. It had pay rates (grades) and benefits listed. It didn't say, if we felt like it, you will get a pension. It was spelled out line by line, word for word. In fact, if I left before 10 years of service I wouldn't get a penny in retirement (vesting period). Now that I have 16 years in, they are looking at eliminating our pensions. I can't wind the clock back and pick another career at this point. Where was my 'exaggerated' salary back in 2006/2007 when private workers were raking it in? I stayed the course and stuck it out. Now that it has crashed those that didn't prepare are jealous. I didn't see this when they were making 2-4 times as much per year as I was. And I didn't jump over when the grass looked greener on the other side either.
Yes and the exact thing is happening in private industry... I know, because it has happened to me.
When I accepted my present job as facility engineer, in large part my decision was based on the benefit package offered which included, stock options, bonus plan, retirement match, excellent health package, etc.
Fast forward to today and the ONLY thing left is a basic health plan which now has me paying into it each pay check and very high deductibles and co-pays...
There is no more employer funded or even partially funded retirement...
I believe the public sector is now being impacted as the private sector was a few years ago.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
