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All these brand new members registering to tell about their plans for showing PoW how to do agriculture right. Astonishing, really
Yes, we're all eagerly awaiting the enlightenment they will bring. Before you know it, we'll all be saved from our berry picking and fishing ways. Every home will have a fish farm in the living room and we'll all be rolling in the welfare so we can afford to feed our livestock guardians while our goat herds strip the island of every last berry bush. Makes me wonder how we all got by so far.
In response to the wink-wink, nudge-nudge tone of the comments about Rob, of course I know him. He and his wife are those close friends of mine I mentioned, that originally got us interested in the island. We knew we needed to move somewhere, but their plans and research helped to shape ours. The fact that they'd already gone to the island and had interacted with the people and are just really cool people to be around, only made the pot sweeter.
You assume that they're going to free range their goats. Without even asking, you've judged their plans (incorrectly) and gone on a rampage of mockery. My posts (except for one, where I was in my opinion understandably upset at Met's sneers and implications of sabotage) have been reasonable, but once Met started in with the mocking, hmmm, everyone joined in. But when my friends join in it becomes something else to laugh at. Not from everyone, and I am thankful that there are people still being rather friendly to me on a forum where Met is obviously 'influential', but I find it rather amusing and ironic nonetheless.
Raising goats here has its own problems, We cannot grow what we need from the land. Well, we could, if we chose to work against our environment and waste precious water in order to not have to buy hay...talk about spending all your time making changes in your environment! So we buy hay and supplement with the scraggly tumbleweed-type growth that the goats keep our property clear of. Sound familiar? I guess I just don't know crap about feeding goats in an inhospitable environment though.
So we've been looking into the fodder system for HERE. Because we want to be able to, you know, feed them without having to buy hay all the time (though we'd still need some for roughage). And whaddaya know, you can feed cows and horses and pigs with that stuff too. AND you don't have to worry about the composition of the crappy ground. I've actually helped Rob & his wife build one system, we've got plans to build another, and while it takes a bit to set up, once it's going it doesn't take much at all to pull out a tray, cut the mat of sprouts into pieces to feed your animals, wash the tray, refill it with new grain and put it back into the system. Rather than working to change the environment, it's setting up a way to make the environment a moot point when addressing specific needs.
The same for the fish farming. The only reason we were wanting tilapia is because it would be better to have a constant source of meat on that front...really, though, I don't effing care about the fish, because yes, fishing & hunting is right there. The whole reason for me to get into the idea of aquaponics there is because of the adamant assertions that the soil on the island is so crappy. Why, after everything you guys have told me, would I choose to dig in the dirt, when I already know the virtues of using fish effluent as a way to nourish and grow vegetables (based on years of looking into everything I could find on the subject of aquaponics, good and bad)? I would think that, even if I were as knowledgeable as Gramma's Cabin, I wouldn't be able to get all necessary vegetative products from the land. Aquaponics is not the back-breaking labor that Met seems to think it is. Feed fish, check water, check DO, make sure that the grow beds don't have any blocked-off areas, harvest anything that's ripe, and maintain a good balance of plant life to fish life. Need to do basic maintenance of the system and keep up with any pruning/spacing needs in the plants (though plants can be much much closer together, due to abundant nutrients), but that's far from a daily need. And again, it bypasses the whole issue of changing the environment to suit our needs. You keep going on about the crazy people who want to introduce European agricultural practices into Alaska...lol there is nothing European about this setup. If anything, it's Australian, developed because they needed ways to grow their food that didn't depend on their soil and didn't waste water. Not exactly the same issues, but the solution seems like it would be equally applicable in Alaska, once light and heating are taken into account. Which we have.
Oh, and with the square footage of the grow beds we're talking about, that's estimated at 50-100 lbs of vegetables a month. Even at the low estimate, that'd be plenty. During those three days of salmonberry picking, though, I'll make sure to rush through feeding the fish before I head out to pick berries, because I do love berries and those don't do well in the alkaline environment of an aquaponics setup. How serendipitous that they do well on the island, and I can have my cake and eat it too! I'll also make sure to look up Gramma's Cabin's notes on potatoes, because root vegetables would be difficult in grow media, but for the rest of it, I'll be enjoying the fresh fruits of my non-intensive labor long into the winter season. And I'll have an awesome aquarium setup in my living room, very soothing and relaxing.
You guys obviously know what you're talking about with the weather, living conditions, and difficulties of living in Alaska. I'll tip my hat to that, and listen to any productive input anyone has. But when I bring up the things I know, and I see a way to bypass those difficulties based on my own knowledge, only a close-minded fool would completely disregard it because 'it can't be done because no one's done it'. So I want to have a greenhouse, and I want to keep animals. You give me problems to address, and when I address them you mock my ideas because they're different. Really? You guys are the type that would have told Wilbur and Orville that they couldn't get their plane up...and then when they were flying overhead, you'd be certain that they'd never get it down. 'Normal' is for people with no imagination.
You assume that they're going to free range their goats. Without even asking, you've judged their plans (incorrectly) and gone on a rampage of mockery.
I don't think so. Your pal said that all that was needed to keep goats on POW was a few livestock guardians. He said nothing about the necessity for good fences. If you have good enough fences, you'll have no need for livestock guardians. The bears on POW aren't that desperate for food, although you'll have to watch it a bit in the spring.
You keep stressing that you want to save money, yet go on about things that are going to cost you a lot, such as livestock guardians. I simply don't see that as cost effective, unless you're going to grow the food for them as well. If you want to keep animals, by all means, do so. All that anyone here has tried to tell you is that POW isn't livestock country.
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And whaddaya know, you can feed cows and horses and pigs with that stuff too
Sure you can. I somehow doubt that it would be time-or-cost-effective to grow all of the food that a horse or a cow could eat in little trays, though.
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'it can't be done because no one's done it'.
BS. A lot of the things you've typed about here have been tried, you aren't some innovative pioneer coming to show us all how to live. As I've already stated, you could raise camels and tigers and zebras in Alaska provided that you've got money to burn on importing their food. But you seem to be a bit of a "when the SHTF type," with comments about how you'll be able to survive if the shipments to "Safeway" stop, and that could happen. The shipment of food for your farm animals will stop then as well. At least you'll have them to eat though, in that event, but you'd better butcher them soon.
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I would think that, even if I were as knowledgeable as Gramma's Cabin, I wouldn't be able to get all necessary vegetative products from the land.
If you were as knowledgeable as GC, you could do exactly that.
The Tlingits have been doing it for centuries, by the way.
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You keep going on about the crazy people who want to introduce European agricultural practices into Alaska...lol there is nothing European about this setup.
I'm not talking about whatever it is you're doing in AZ; I'm talking about people who think that standard agricultural practices that worked to settle the American West are viable in SE Alaska. Big, outdoor gardens and plenty of livestock.
Whether your aquaponics is going to work or not is going to depend on whatever power system you get going for yourself. Sure, people do it in SE, but they're mostly hobbyists. And I'd suggest that you get with Bob at F&G and ask him for definitive regulations on indoor fin-fish farming.
Like I've stated several times, some of your ideas will work, some won't, and hopefully you'll figure it out as you go. But you seem to have this terribly defensive stance towards anyone who has questioned some of your ideas. If you think it's bad on this forum, how are you going to respond the first time you're slugging away on the screwdrivers in the Moose Lodge and start yapping about fish farming in your living room and growing trays of sprouts for your horses?
You seem to be a little bit too fixated on me, for whatever reason...maybe it's because I pointed out to you that the mountain goat population that you claimed existed on POW really does not exist and that they aren't actually antelope anyway...who knows; I think it's because I didn't oohh and ahh over your ideas. You seem to feel that I'm somehow "influencing" people against you; I'd suggest that you consider the fact that these people are more than capable of thinking for themselves.
There isn't anything wrong with not knowing certain things, and most people are helpful and glad to answer questions -- but you seem to get a bit pissy when people respond with answers that you don't want to hear. Personally, I find it annoying when someone who has never even been to the island tries to tell me about the wild goat (antelope) population that doesn't exist, or points to tenuous internet resources about living-room fish farming practices. The F&G website may not directly address the permit needed in order to grow tilipia in your living room, but they sure as hell make it more than clear that you cannot import any live eggs or fish into the state for the purpose of human consumption without a permit. Just how difficult that permit is going to be for you to obtain is something that you'll have to research properly.
If you come up comparing yourselves to Orville and Wilbur Wright..well, that's another can of worms.
Okay how does this sound.... I want move to Alaska be cause it has been my dream since I was a little girl (call it stupid whatever). The more I researched and visited the more I new that was were I meant to be. I'm not saying it will be easy I know it will be hard work and I might fail but that's my right. I have always have animals; horses, goats, dogs, cats, chicken, etc.. I am not willing to give them up, I that means I need to spend $10,000,000 up front to buy the land and make suitable in closers and build a feeding system just for them then that's what I need to do.
That being said aside from the initial up front costs I want to be able to live very simply. I intend to make trips to Seattle twice a year to get bulk goods. I will also patronize at local stores and the few restaurants. Don't worry about where I'll get my money, that's for me to worry about. I intend to build a large greenhouse and grow most all my (and my animals) food hydroponically. That is my area of expertise. I appreciate the concern as to whether or not if will work but that will be my problem. All I'm concerned with is making new friends and being a good neighbor. I would love to eventually after many years of making connections and through trial and error be able to sell my excess produce and dairy products. I already have one livestock guardian, my goats and him are fenced with in a 3 acre lot. I spend about $200 a month on hay. I started feeding my animals barley fodder and I intend to experiment with other grain mixtures. I also spend about $300 on dog food a month. I understand how much work and money it takes to raise animals, it is my hobby and passion. If I could make some extra money on it so be it, if not well no harm done.
I am very dishearten with the level of negativity I have seen on this thread. It doesn't change my plans it just makes me sad, I was hoping I could have an open and civil discussion about my plans with people who already live on POW but that's apparently not possible.
Oh just one quick question... Metlakatla, what is you job title with F&G?
Met, the only reason I fixated on you is because you seem to be the one who first started making the personal attacks, and because even when I tried to extend the proverbial olive branch, you seemed to take a particular glee in mocking things that were, frankly, only a small part of what I was saying. YOU made it personal, and took sincere questions as an opening to vent your sarcasm and oh-so-jolly attacks. I'm quite aware that I have a lot to learn, and I have no problem in admitting that, but if someone treats me like you have then no, that's not just 'something I don't want to hear'.
Yeah one night I complained about people who took my musings on solutions and made non-helpful comments. Perhaps that wasn't the most mature way of handling it, but I didn't just whine about it, I looked for other solutions. I'm very sorry for getting peeved at that and not addressing the advice that was already given and the friendly nature of the thread before it got ugly.
I'm not sorry for being stubborn, and I'm not sorry for calling you out on your personal attacks and veiled threats. Regardless of a couple of comments I said when I was drinking (and really, your insinuations that I'm a drunk are also uncalled for...what would be friendly teasing in another situation is just plain rudeness in one where you've made your disdain for me clear), I don't deserve, nor will I silently accept, the types of comments that YOU in particular are making to and about me. Obviously you'll say what you will, free country and all that, but when you point out my 'attitude' like I'm the only one at fault here, you're just deluding yourself. And I am perfectly free to call you things that this forum filters out, for your own attitude.
And I know I've gotten my back up on certain topics. Perhaps I wouldn't have if the derision displayed toward me and my friends hadn't given me such an urge to thumb my nose at you and the others who joined in. I honestly don't know if I'll be doing some of the things I've claimed I'll be doing. Regardless of my claims of research, there's still a lot more to learn, because I'd hate to start something and have unforeseen complications set us back.
I don't care about showing others how to live. You all live the way you want to, the way that works for you, and I'm happy to live alongside you. But if I actively want to live a certain way, and I have ideas for how to implement that, then I'm going to try to figure out how to do it...not to show someone something 'better', but just because I want to do it. If it's not economically feasible, then it's not, and I'll look at some other way to get what I want. I'm sure I'll make mistakes, but my original purpose here was to talk things out, maybe get some feedback from interested and knowledgeable people, and make better plans to start with.
I had kind of abandoned the aquaponics plan when we decided to leave AZ for AK...but on further consideration, it seems quite possible. The design I had come up with for here has to be modified due to changing conditions, but as long as we have it inside the house then I'm not as worried about the water temperature or being able to tend it during poor weather. I'm not wanting to do this as a hobby, the whole thing purely fascinates me, and I'm excited to think I may not have to give it up as I'd assumed would be the case.
As I said before, we have been looking into using a gasifier for electricity production, which, while it would mean a lot of work, would keep us from being dependent upon the electric company. The aquaponics setup and fodder system setup would require power, but not so much that it would be prohibitive. LED lighting is quite easy on the power draw...and while pumps aren't, we are cutting energy consumption in other areas, hopefully enough to compensate.
I wouldn't go to the Moose Lodge and start yapping about fish farming and hydroponics, lol...that would be a lot harder to shrug off than having people here laugh at me. But I wouldn't mind showing up one day with a bin full of melons to sell (depending on those regulations...I know I couldn't get away with that here). If at that point someone asked me how I did it, and I explained my setup, it would be hard for them to discount actual results. Until then I'll keep my mouth shut though, and just socialize without the weird ideas.
But here, it's easier to be anonymous. I can talk to people that won't actually be my neighbors, bring up outlandish topics, and bounce ideas around until they make sense. Or at least that was my hope. I'm glad that, even though you obviously still disapprove, your last post is (mostly) not personal or sarcastic. I can be reasonable, I can listen to criticism and take it without getting my feelings hurt, if it's given without the derision. Even with the derision, I'll still take info from it...which is why I'm still here. You all have brought up things that I'll be looking into, including calling (or emailing) F&G to get a definitive, specific answer to certain questions.
But if I get an attitude in response to mocking comments, that shouldn't be too surprising. I realize that past experiences might make certain people jump to put me in a category of 'those who don't like what they hear so they pout'. I can see how it could be irritating to have someone blithely claim that something is one way, when you have experience to the contrary. But I'm not pouting. I'm just trying to work out what will work for me. Perhaps we all jumped on the defensive here.
Ah, and my other dear friend, who has amazing dogs and her own brood of goats. Please treat her with respect, we all just want to look at all aspects of this and work together to succeed in our goals. I'm all for the electric fence, she's all for livestock guardians, I'm thinking that if we incorporate both then we'll have a hell of a defense system for our animals. And yes, part of that includes feeding everything, which, with the stuff we'd be growing and fishing, wouldn't be as expensive as it could be.
Okay how does this sound.... I want move to Alaska be cause it has been my dream since I was a little girl (call it stupid whatever). The more I researched and visited the more I new that was were I meant to be. I'm not saying it will be easy I know it will be hard work and I might fail but that's my right. I have always have animals; horses, goats, dogs, cats, chicken, etc.. I am not willing to give them up, I that means I need to spend $10,000,000 up front to buy the land and make suitable in closers and build a feeding system just for them then that's what I need to do.
I don't work for F&G.
Plenty of people have horses in AK; just not on POW. Alaska is a huge state with a lot of different types of environments. If you're set on living on POW and you've got 10 million to spend upfront on creating a suitable environment for your horses, more power to you; with that kind of money, you might be able to pull it off. Adequate grazing for them doesn't exist, though, and you'd have to create a good riding arena. In the event of the SHTF scenario that your friend seems to be concerned with, I hope you've got some good horse-meat recipes handy.
As I've already said here, you can raise almost all types of animals on the island if you've got the money to burn. Your friend seemed concerned with expenses, however, so it's good to know that you've got 10 million tucked away.
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I am very dishearten with the level of negativity I have seen on this thread. It doesn't change my plans it just makes me sad, I was hoping I could have an open and civil discussion about my plans with people who already live on POW but that's apparently not possible.
Doesn't work, sorry. Just because people with real-life knowledge of the place you're interested in relocating to say things that you don't want to hear, that doesn't mean it isn't possible to have a civil conversation.
Ah, and my other dear friend, who has amazing dogs and her own brood of goats. Please treat her with respect, we all just want to look at all aspects of this and work together to succeed in our goals. I'm all for the electric fence, she's all for livestock guardians, I'm thinking that if we incorporate both then we'll have a hell of a defense system for our animals. And yes, part of that includes feeding everything, which, with the stuff we'd be growing and fishing, wouldn't be as expensive as it could be.
You'll have to. Depending on the livestock guardians alone isn't going to work, unless, as I previously stated, they are very capable of keeping your goats on your property alone. That's for their own safety, but not from bears. You probably think that's a "threat;" it isn't. For your peace of mind, I won't be traipsing over to Thorne Bay to spy on your goats and shoot them if they cross your property line. But there are hunters, and in thick brush, your goats could be mistaken for deer. There are people who live in the area who might get upset if roaming goats eat up their favorite berry picking grounds or get into their gardens. Without a proper fence, these things are likely to occur.
"Veiled threats, personal attacks," -- that's paranoid BS.
Actually, my comments to you were good-natured at first -- the sort of things that you'll hear in real life if you move up, and I imagine that the others who said things about your goats being bear food didn't mean any harm, either. Those are the types of comments that you're going to hear, though, and you'll probably read derision into them as well.
You turned this thread ugly yourself when you made your screwdriver inspired comments, and now you've brought reinforcements in. That's okay; hopefully they can learn something.
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And I am perfectly free to call you things that this forum filters out, for your own attitude.
Not exactly. You start slinging the bad words like you're in some sort of tacky barroom brawl and you could find yourself put out the door here.
There are Alaskan communities that are primarily agricultural in nature that are also beautiful, but on the road system. I've never been on POW so I don't have really any insight into living on an Alaskan island. What makes POW your location of choice when there are more optimal places in Alaska to pursue this type of lifestyle?
There are Alaskan communities that are primarily agricultural in nature that are also beautiful, but on the road system. I've never been on POW so I don't have really any insight into living on an Alaskan island. What makes POW your location of choice when there are more optimal places in Alaska to pursue this type of lifestyle?
I think I'd probably go up around the Mat Valley or maybe the Homer area -- I've heard that the soil around Homer is really good. One thing people don't realize about POW is just how shallow the soil is -- not much topsoil at all. Raised beds are pretty much a necessity, and a lot of people use old tires for growing things in.
A few years ago, someone had the idea that they were going to raise rabbits. They got tired of the rabbits and turned them loose; now they are everywhere.
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