Tongass National Forest policy in Alaska (Craig, Klawock: subsidized, maintenance, live)

[Sarkar]

well akck.... the pictures on the previous page are around the same area...100's a acres of the same so we'll rule out landing area, it all looks the same

Not only this area but all over the entire island here...its all the same, therefore mismanagement fits the bill perfectly

Hey...its like this all over southeast Alaska and the Tongass.

I can overwhelm ya with my own pictures of this same practice from many locations around SE....

Left behind, in addition to the regular items I've mentioned above, its not at all uncommon to see old log truck tires and broken parts from logging equipment...and places where they've done oil-changes directly onto the ground and of coarse left the filters too

[Sarkar]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

Are you against all logging in the forest sarkar?

What I'm against, as should others be, is FS management failures when we as taxpayers are footing the bill

What I'm against, as others should be, is nation-wide logging practices that have huge subsidies that WE pay for.

What I'm against, as others should be, is the false information about how important this crappola all is in the name of jobs....

The logging industry has been its own worst ememy for years and they aren't smart enough to wake up....they'd rather b-i-t-c-h about how they are being locked out of the woods...

Their idea of forest management is simply to clear-cut everything, let erosion damage take it coarse at some one else's expense...and collect unemployment in the off season.

[Beenaroundabit]

Well...its certainly easy to be a Seattleite and put your spin on this... spin is all you've offered btw...

Um...OK. Well, I may live outside Seattle right now, but that hardly makes my opinion of the USFS employees that I know from when I lived in Alaska (read the entire profile - not just the part you want to pick on) any less valid. My opinion of people I actually know is not "spin." On the contrary, all you've offered is a typical, vitrioloic "I-hate-the-gov't" rant, so having to wade through that doesn't help your anti-logging argument very much.

Before you're in any position to demand any 'yes' or 'no' answers from me, I think it's only fair for you to provide what I asked for, first: proof that gov't employees in Alaska don't work or that these lots full of sparkling-new gov't equipment that aren't being used actually exist. Until then, your statements don't hold much water.

While we're on the topic of "spin," Greenpeace and other groups used to take photos of the logged native land around Hoonah and post them on their website, claiming it was FS land - how does anyone know the photos you posted are even USFS land? Not saying it isn't, but your postings are potentially full of wayyyy more spin than mine.

You know, try "managing" an area as large as the Tongass with as few employees (and as small a budget) as the USFS has - especially in proprotion to the large amount of users and the varied uses - and see if you can do better. Until you can offer solutions to the alleged problems you're trying to highlight, you're not helping anyone or anything - least of all the resource, itself.

[arctichomesteader]

Well, I'm not a big fan of clear cutting myself, but realize sarkar that those areas cut will all grow back in with new trees and vegetation. Leaving some of the unwanted trees and waste from the trees on the ground will help prevent erosion while vegetation grows back in, and will put some nutrients back in the soil, besides providing habitat for some animals/birds/insects. Sometimes clear cutting is in fact a good thing, to bring about new growth, eliminate high fire risk vegetation (better to cut 100 acres clear than to have a million acres burn as a result of a high risk spot catching fire, don't you think?). And not all logging going on is clear cutting. Selective logging is actually a more preferred method for the most part, since the most valuable/useful trees are selected. Sometiems others do need to be removed to gain access though.

The purpose behind national forests is to make the resources available to all, whether it's fish for fishing, animals for hunting, land for recreation, trees for fuel and building products, etc. They were intended to be used by commercial interests and private individuals. Sometimes these users collide with each other, it's inevitable, but I think it best to continue the multiple uses. I wouldn't excuse poor management but the FS doesn't have the ability to closely monitor everything that happens, and I wouldn't want them too to be honest, it'd make national forests more like national parks (over regulated). My favorite places to camp, shoot guns, etc., are national forests; I can go a week or more in many of them and never be interrupted by some ranger looking for excuses to write tickets or whatever. I like that. With well intentioned but ignorant laws passed regulating how things are managed--like the 100 year schedule thing, it's inevitable that things won't be managed right everywhere because no one shoe fits all, but the FS is forced by law to act as though it does. I think good management of the forests (full of renewable resources, including energy sources such as trees) will be increasingly important, and I think to make thing stoo regulated right now would be short sighted. Improve management, yes, make it not worth utilizing these resources, no.

[Metlakatla]

My opinion of people I actually know is not "spin."

My opinion of a place I actually live is not "spin" either.

It can't sustain any more f-ing logging.

The FS has been involved in some pretty shady practices but that's nothing compared to what the Native Corps. have done to their own land.

The purpose behind national forests is to make the resources available to all, whether it's fish for fishing, animals for hunting, land for recreation, trees for fuel and building products, etc.

Suppose you tell me where the majority of the timber cut on POW actually went to.

[cobolt]

Read some of the travel/hiking books written by Bill Bryson, such as his hike along the Appalachian Trail and you get to read about the madness that is the FS. It will **** off anyone with half a brain. It's happening, in AK and elsewhere.

[Metlakatla]

Arctichomesteader...

Sometimes clear cutting is in fact a good thing, to bring about new growth, eliminate high fire risk vegetation (better to cut 100 acres clear than to have a million acres burn as a result of a high risk spot catching fire, don't you think?).

The Tongass is a rain forest.

Not many high risk spots there as far as fire goes.

You have a lot of good points in your post...it's just that a lot of what you're saying is not applicable to the Tongass.

If you're looking for some good reading material, the Book of the Tongass is something you might be interested in. It touches on several aspects of life in S.E. Alaska; not just logging. There is also an good study on the subject done by Oregon State University which addresses the issues of regrowth and soil erosion pretty well.

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

Arctichomesteader...



The Tongass is a rain forest.

Not many high risk spots there as far as fire goes.

You have a lot of good points in your post...it's just that a lot of what you're saying is not applicable to the Tongass.

If you're looking for some good reading material, the Book of the Tongass is something you might be interested in. It touches on several aspects of life in S.E. Alaska; not just logging. There is also an good study on the subject done by Oregon State University which addresses the issues of regrowth and soil erosion pretty well.

You may be right. I've seen areas in the Interior while I was land hunting that could use some logging or there may be fires...the Southeast is a different can of worms I suppose.

[Metlakatla]

Yeah, I remember a few years ago I was up there and the whole interior was covered in smoke. I don't think it's a yearly occurrence though. I don't ever recall a forest fire of any significance at all in the Tongass--if they've taken place at all there's a very rare part of our reality.

Here's some interesting reading...

America's Roadless Areas -- The Tongass National Forest (http://www.ourforests.org/places/tongass.html - broken link)

This goes along with some of what Sarkar was saying:

http://www.ourforests.org/documents/tongass_subsidy_factsheet_no_call_to_action_2007.p df (broken link)

Incidentally, the trees don't grow back as fast as some would like you to believe. The initial growth is pretty rapid but...due to a particular soil condition in SE, the growth then slows....the graveyards won't begin to resemble what they once were for about 100 years.

How long ago was it that they logged Sunnahe, Sarkar? I can't remember the year but I know it was before Matt was born.

[Alaskagrl]

Originally Posted by Sarkar

Having observed so-called "timber harvest" all over southeast Alaska for several years, most recently Prince of Wales Island, my opinion is it borders on criminal activity due to mismanagement by the Forest Circus

First of all the good timber was cut in the 70's and exported to Japan in the round, which means logs not processed...ie, jobs lost.

That is no longer allowed, not because the Forest Circus finally figured out it was poor practice....they weren't smart enough for that.

The timber that remains today is very poor quality. Very very little is of the quality to produce decent lumber.....its pulp quality at best, for paper products

Timber harvest is heavily subsidized by the US taxpayer....the Forest Circus operates at a huge loss...that started from day-one, long before litigation became a big part of their budget. The current litigation is necessary because the Circus fails in just about everything they attempt, except for buying new vehicles regularly with your money, in fact I'd go as far as to say the entire FS needs a total face-lift

The FS recovers absolutely nothing from a timber sale in the way of actual revenue.
They actually pay the logging companies to re-plant and they also pay them to put in whatever roads are required to get access to the "timber harvest"...when the job is done the logging companies have actually been paid to cut your tress...

The words "timber sale" is simply to give the impression that something is actually being sold and the Forest Circus has something to show for their effort...nope, not so.

Here is your typical "timber harvest" practice in all of southeast Alaska thanks to your Forest Service, and you paid for this..

These pictures are at Prince of Wales Island......the Forest Circus has two large facilities on POW, one in Craig and one at Thorne Bay with parking lots fulla new vehicles, boats, and many year-round employees at taxpayers expense and they do very little...

Your taxpayer dollars being totally wasted.....

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/SpoofCatcher/Img00014005.jpg (broken link)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/SpoofCatcher/Img00014011.jpg (broken link)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/SpoofCatcher/Img00014015.jpg (broken link)

Wow, Sarkar, you are completely out of touch with today's forest "circus." the trailers left to rot are from CONTRACTORS, not FS, who didn't want to pay big $$ to get them out (as contract clearly stated) after the harvest.

Also, the Forest Service has only managed to keep timber production viable for over a century in this area. Hmm, how the heck can they do that if they are raping the land, as you claim? We are harvesting viable, healthy second growth that is only 40 -50 years old--or we could, if the GD environmental lobby would back the eff off.
Also--we do NOT pay contractors for roads; that comes straight out of the national Roads Management kitty, and a new ATM is being developed right now.

Sorry, man, didn't realize just how misinformed you are about all this stuff. I figured you knew more, having been a seasonal liver here for I guess quite a while. Wow.

And--to say that all FS employees are lazy??? How offensive; I work my AZZ off every day for a very paltry paycheck, thank you, and most of my "circus" buddies (not all, I grant you) do the same. It's pretty hard when our budget is continually slashed and we can't even DRIVE those "new" (newest vehicle on either district is a 2005, I'm pretty sure) vehicles due to budget crunches and other things too numerous to go into.