Tongass National Forest policy in Alaska

[Alaskagrl]

Also, the reason we have to harvest small diameter wood for "pulp products" is that we are no longer "allowed" by environmental groups to go in and get the big stuff; we've successfully wrecked demand, so instead of getting US timber, we now import a lot of timber from countries who don't give a eff how they cut, what they do to their land, or safety practices--they have none for their workers. AWESOME!! So, we'll just help some other country destroy itself rather than RESPONSIBLY go in and carefully cut our own wood. You obviously look at a clearcut and think "ugly"--that same clearcut (if it's not a native corp one) will be green and filled with deer, bear, and other foragers in 4-5 years!!
Folks seem to think we still just "slash and burn." We are a LONG way from that, people. A very long way.

Oh, by the way--Sarkar--I am pretty sure that picture is a Native corp cut, not a FS cut. It also resembles a state cut, but usually theirs are pretty clean looking.

[Alaskagrl]

Originally Posted by Beenaroundabit

Sorry, but gotta disagree on this one. I worked with MANY Forest Service employees in AK and they did not "do very little", but worked very hard, for an agency about which opinions are definitely very polarized (at least in AK, anyway). Many of them could have had higher paying gigs in the private sector, but chose to work for the Forest Serviceinstead.

The gov't is the gov't, with plenty of red tape and backwards practices. No denying that. But it's usually because we have to try to make EVERYone happy simultaneously, which is never gonna happen. However, I certainly wouldn't disparage individual government employees who don't deserve it, especially without proof.

Parking lot full of new vehicles and boats? Gotta call BS on that unless you want to show us a photo of some GOV plates, because there is currently NO natural resource agency in the federal governmet that has surplus dollars to spend on new gear that they don't use - we have to beg and borrow for every penny. And even then, you have ZERO clue where that equipment might be headed for or who it really belongs to (i.e. which agency; just because it's in a USDA lot doesn't mean it's USDA property).

If you're angry at he government and want to make a point, you should do so with evidence; not with random photos, obviously-biased statements and simple assumptions. If you think your taxpayer dollars are being "wasted," be revolutionary about it and offer a solution instead of pointing a finger, like every other person who seems to hate the government is so fond of doing.

Thank you for this. You are dead right on the budget woes and begging and borrowing; we have even taken to partnerships with groups like the OHV club; we give them a few places to ride and they, in turn, do some maintenance on our trails, cabins, and other recreation sites for free because we can't keep seasonal workers on for the time we used to. They do it very well too, clean up trash and even cut firewood for folks--using their own gas and vehicles.

How's that for us lazy, fat-cat gov't workers? Now THAT'S an example of your taxpayer dollars at work.

[Alaskagrl]

And, now that I've cooled down a bit from some things I took very personally on here from Sarkar and probably shouldn't have, I'll say this.

I don't think our particular area can sustain much more logging, either. I'm not for scalping areas over and over with no recovery time. But again, trees and land are more resilient than people thing. To suggest that the FS hasn't learned any lessons or changed management policies since the Dust Bowl is really insulting.

Even for a place that has been heavily logged, POW is sure abundant with life. I've never seen a lack of deer, salmon, or bear (this is also subject to out of state hunting pressure) while on this island. Places are green, growing, and healthy. The few streams that get choked up with sediment are quickly identified and cleared, usually by FS people, with some State involvement depending on jurisdiction. Now someone might say--a few years ago, things were better--more deer, more salmon, etc. I haven't been here as long as some folks, I plainly admit. I'm just sayin,' it's pretty darn good now. I believe that fact illustrates something about the renewability of our forests and, also, perhaps the fact that the FS in particular, hasn't treated the land with as blatant disregard as some folks seem to think.

Yeah, I'm biased; I live here and I work for the bad ol' govt. And I love doing both, and I take to heart the fact that my job is to "serve the people and protect the land." So shoot me.

[akck]

Originally Posted by Sarkar

Having observed so-called "timber harvest" all over southeast Alaska for several years, most recently Prince of Wales Island, my opinion is it borders on criminal activity due to mismanagement by the Forest Circus

First of all the good timber was cut in the 70's and exported to Japan in the round, which means logs not processed...ie, jobs lost.

That is no longer allowed, not because the Forest Circus finally figured out it was poor practice....they weren't smart enough for that.

The timber that remains today is very poor quality. Very very little is of the quality to produce decent lumber.....its pulp quality at best, for paper products

Timber harvest is heavily subsidized by the US taxpayer....the Forest Circus operates at a huge loss...that started from day-one, long before litigation became a big part of their budget. The current litigation is necessary because the Circus fails in just about everything they attempt, except for buying new vehicles regularly with your money, in fact I'd go as far as to say the entire FS needs a total face-lift

The FS recovers absolutely nothing from a timber sale in the way of actual revenue.
They actually pay the logging companies to re-plant and they also pay them to put in whatever roads are required to get access to the "timber harvest"...when the job is done the logging companies have actually been paid to cut your tress...

The words "timber sale" is simply to give the impression that something is actually being sold and the Forest Circus has something to show for their effort...nope, not so.

Here is your typical "timber harvest" practice in all of southeast Alaska thanks to your Forest Service, and you paid for this..

These pictures are at Prince of Wales Island......the Forest Circus has two large facilities on POW, one in Craig and one at Thorne Bay with parking lots fulla new vehicles, boats, and many year-round employees at taxpayers expense and they do very little...

Your taxpayer dollars being totally wasted.....

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/SpoofCatcher/Img00014005.jpg (broken link)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/SpoofCatcher/Img00014011.jpg (broken link)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a77/SpoofCatcher/Img00014015.jpg (broken link)

Looking at these pictures, the areas don't look bad to me. I can see new growth coming in and I'll bet in a few years, it will be totally covered. I'll bet in 20-30 years, you won't be able to tell it was logged, other than the trees are shorter and the road and landing areas. The third pictured area especially looks good for a logged area.

[Metlakatla]

Also, the reason we have to harvest small diameter wood for "pulp products" is that we are no longer "allowed" by environmental groups to go in and get the big stuff;

No...you aren't allowed to take the big stuff anymore. There is so very little left...

we've successfully wrecked demand, so instead of getting US timber, we now import a lot of timber from countries who don't give a eff how they cut, what they do to their land, or safety practices--they have none for their workers.

Kinda sounds like another place I used to know...oh wait, that was the Tongass back in the day. A great deal of that forest went straight to Asia. I recall the Korean log ships that used to come in to old Ed Head's mill (it sounds like a joke but it really wasn't funny; at least two healthy dogs would disappear every time they came to the island).

Seaalaska et al were young corporations then; most of their executives and advisors were carpetbaggers in their own right.

I know quite a few older, die hard rednecks who have been involved in logging their entire lives who agree with me that some of the logging practices inflicted on POW by both the FS and the Native Corps. were nothing short of criminal. So it's a bit more complicated than just a "greenie vs. pro-development" type of conflict. And there's an elder in Klawock who's well worth listening to on this subject; though I won't put his name on a public forum.

A single tree may be a fairly resilient organism...an entire rain forest ecosystem...not so much. Yeah, AKgril, there are bears and fish and deer left, but you never saw what it was. That isn't your fault; you were just a kid in another part of the country when the final slaughter was taking place.

And I'm inclined to take the word of the researchers at OSU when it comes to dendrological sciences a bit more seriously than FS rhetoric. After all, I used to work with them fairly closely.

I don't think our particular area can sustain much more logging, either.

And that's just what it comes down to. And that's a wonderful statement coming from a FS employee, and I thank you for that.

[Alaskagrl]

Metla, good points, though perhaps it's better if we agree to disagree on some of the finer ones.

Some FS rhetoric bugs the crap out of me too, don't get me wrong; I don't bleed green! But I just have a slightly different view than you, and I am also aware you've probably been around in AK lots longer than me. Who's right or wrong; maybe there's a truth somewhere in between. Thanks for the thoughts, and I do mean that.

Was gone on wilderness safari for a couple days...that's why no posts. Was simply phenomenal out there.

Steelhead counts are way down from 2005, according to folks at karta weir. Not good.

[Metlakatla]

Nothing at all wrong with not bleeding green; all too often that's nothing more than an urban fashion statement anyway.

Of course we can disagree; our perspectives are coming from time periods about twenty years apart. And during the last and probably final feeding frenzy, the cultural impact was more profoundly felt among the populace than the environmental one was. POW has stabilized somewhat since then.