No Smoking in AZ Bars & Restaurants After May 1st, 2007! (theater, living)
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Very true. This person is trying to compare car exhaust/fumes with smoking indoors? Dumb. People aren't running their cars in restaurants, while aiming their exhaust pipe directly into the booths next to them, and the noses of other patrons. Some people just don't understand how to give a legitimate, valid, or logical argument...they just grasp at any straw they think will prove their point. It seems to make them lose credibility more often than it helps their cause. You're absolutely correct, irwin....apples and oranges.
Well, I guess you will also have to include the good people at the EPA and the American Cancer Society into that rather inaccurate and ignorant comment about my argument being "dumb." My information about vehicle emissions came directly from their websites. Or did your eyes just rather selectively forget to read that part of my post? I know that some people, when confronted with something they do not wish to face, have a habit of skipping over or ignoring it.
As for your deliberately inflammatory and uncalled for comment..."Some people just don't understand how to give a legitimate, valid, or logical argument," I believe my university lecturers in psychology and social sciences would disagree with your ill-founded assumptions. Your judgement lacks any rational validity due to your lack of personal aquaintance with myself or my academic record. It might be a good idea for you to have a good look at your own post before you start making assertions about another's ability to give a legitimate, valid or logical argument. I made assertions about a topic and then provided information from two very reputable agencies/associations. These are two very important components of forming a legitimate, valid and logical argument. So could you please tell me which outside sources you consulted as a basis to back up your arguments about my supposed lack of abilities?
I suggest that you go back and read my posts in their entirety; this time don't conveniently skip over the information cited from the EPA and American Cancer Society.
Culpability...look it up in the dictionary. It quite adequately defines that which the non-smokers are desperately trying to avoid when it comes to their true so-called concerns about air quality and health issues.
NO, I don't smoke. I see this as the start of more really stupid stuff. A world war started from a "I'm right, you're wrong peer pressure society" now didn't it...
... I believe my university lecturers in psychology and social sciences would disagree with your ill-founded assumptions. Your judgement lacks any rational validity due to your lack of personal aquaintance with myself or my academic record. It might be a good idea for you to have a good look at your own post before you start making assertions about another's ability to give a legitimate, valid or logical argument. I made assertions about a topic and then provided information from two very reputable agencies/associations. These are two very important components of forming a legitimate, valid and logical argument. So could you please tell me which outside sources you consulted as a basis to back up your arguments about my supposed lack of abilities?
I suggest that you go back and read my posts in their entirety; this time don't conveniently skip over the information cited from the EPA and American Cancer Society.
...
Oh good.... and what about the scientists quoted in the Arizona Republic a few years ago stating that "jogging for 20-minutes in the metro Phoenix area was equivalent to smoking a pack of cigarettes"? Or the studies other governments have done and found that "Automotive exhast is linked to chronic fatigue, flu-like illness, anxiety, mental illness, respiratory disease, and cancer."
You're not the only one who knows how to do research.
Oh good.... and what about the scientists quoted in the Arizona Republic a few years ago stating that "jogging for 20-minutes in the metro Phoenix area was equivalent to smoking a pack of cigarettes"? Or the studies other governments have done and found that "Automotive exhast is linked to chronic fatigue, flu-like illness, anxiety, mental illness, respiratory disease, and cancer."
You're not the only one who knows how to do research.
Excellent points! Welcome aboard. We can always use a few more good researchers in this forum.
The biggest problem we are running into on this thread is the inability of SOME of the vehicle driving non-smokers to put up their hands and say..."Yes, you are right. I am also contributing to air pollution and the ill health of others." I had no problem with admitting that yes, I am aware that my smoking is part of the problem contributing to poor air quality. I had expected the same sort of maturity and honesty from those who are so vehemently against smoking because of what it does to the air and to health. I was wrong. It was too much to expect from them. Should have known better. After all, they have screamed so loudly and insistantly about how "nasty," "disgusting" and "dirty" that smoking is because of what it does to the air and health that they cannot bear to have those same rather degrading comments thrown back at themselves for also contributing to the problem through driving their vehicles. Its a classic case of denial and the inability to accept that which is factual about themselves and others.
You drive a car, you add significantly to the air quality problems. Accept it, get a good dose of reality, deal with it and do something about it or shut up about how bad the smokers are. Anyone who drives a car is no better than a smoker and has no valid grounds for complaint.
As for me, I believe I am done with this discussion. Its too much like arguing with a Fundamentalist or religious fanatic. They are great at preaching to others how bad and sinful they are, but when attention is drawn to their own failings or culpabilities they can't handle it, and refuse to acknowledge that they too have "sinned."
Before I leave this thread I would like to address a comment that was left for me in my Reputation section. I'm oly sorry that I do not know who posted it. The comment was this...
"You don't have an argument. Your topic is a non-issue. It doesn't have anything to do with smoking being banned. It has to do with car exhaust. What's your point? I agree with aoyas that you don't understand how to give an intelligent argument."
Since smoking in bars, restaurants and other enclosed spaces has become such an issue one has to ask "why?" Only a complete fool would go along with a ban on smoking without knowing the reasons cited for the ban. What are the reasons that have been cited? From what I've read so far the main reasons cited are the effects it has on the health of others, the smell and the pollution it adds to our air. Okay, fair enough. These are valid arguments. It is also fair to provide equally valid arguments that vehicle exhaust is just as dangerous to ones health and the quality of our air. If we base our arguments around the reasons for non-smoker's call for a ban then other types of air borne pollutants that affect our health and the air we breate also become valid arguments to the issue. You cannot expect people to accpt one argument but to ignore the equally valid argument. The main issue is around WHAT second hand smoke does to the air and to the body. I have merely pointed out that other factors were being blatantly ignored which were of equal danger. If smoking is banned based on these factors then the driving of automobiles must also be banned and the emissions from these vehicles should be just as concerning and worrisome to non-smokers who wish to ban smoking.
Well, I guess you will also have to include the good people at the EPA and the American Cancer Society into that rather inaccurate and ignorant comment about my argument being "dumb." My information about vehicle emissions came directly from their websites. Or did your eyes just rather selectively forget to read that part of my post? I know that some people, when confronted with something they do not wish to face, have a habit of skipping over or ignoring it.
As for your deliberately inflammatory and uncalled for comment..."Some people just don't understand how to give a legitimate, valid, or logical argument," I believe my university lecturers in psychology and social sciences would disagree with your ill-founded assumptions. Your judgement lacks any rational validity due to your lack of personal aquaintance with myself or my academic record. It might be a good idea for you to have a good look at your own post before you start making assertions about another's ability to give a legitimate, valid or logical argument. I made assertions about a topic and then provided information from two very reputable agencies/associations. These are two very important components of forming a legitimate, valid and logical argument. So could you please tell me which outside sources you consulted as a basis to back up your arguments about my supposed lack of abilities?
I suggest that you go back and read my posts in their entirety; this time don't conveniently skip over the information cited from the EPA and American Cancer Society.
Culpability...look it up in the dictionary. It quite adequately defines that which the non-smokers are desperately trying to avoid when it comes to their true so-called concerns about air quality and health issues.
I stand by my statement that your argument (I use that term lightly, since you have no real argument) is dumb. No one is debating that car exhaust causes health problems, or that the EPA or American Lung Association or American Cancer Society claims it is bad for your health, yet you keep screaming about it. It's obvious you come from the school of, "He who speaks the loudest and most often, wins."
Whether or not car exhaust causes health risks is not the issue. That factual information, in and of itself, is not what is "dumb." The issue is whether or not the ban on smoking indoors, in confined public spaces, is legitimate, NOT whether or not Americans should stop using their cars to lower exhaust emissions into the atmosphere. You're trying to prove your point by using facts and opinions that have nothing to do with the topic at hand...smoking in public and confined areas...not exhaust fumes, chemical spills, ground water contamination, or whatever other envirmental and health hazards you can come up with. Cigarettes, second-hand smoke, and smoking indoors in confined public places in AZ are what's being discussed. You have lost any credibility that you may have had on this issue, since you insist upon skirting the real topic at hand (since, apparently, you can't come up with a true, rational, and logical argument against it), and bringing up other non-relevant discussions and/or accusations (yes, car exhaust causing lung disease is completely irrelevant to the discussion of a smoking ban in public indoor areas, no matter which way you want to spin it). And no, you cannot make a legitimate, logical, or intelligent argument, judging from the rationalization (or lackthereof) you have displayed thus far on this thread.
Get over yourself. I haven't skipped over any part of anyone's argument. I just choose not to waste time addressing the obviously ridiculous, irrelevant nonsense, and I choose to offer a more reasonable and logical viewpoint to those who are in serious need of a reality check. I could follow your lead and research all day about the effects of groundwater contamination, and cite every statement or fact ever made on the subject (like you, for some reason, have insisted upon doing *over and over and over again* regarding car exhaust). What are you trying to prove? That there are lots of unhealthy things in our world? Well, I think we all know that is pretty obvious. What's your point? What does that have to do with banning smoking indoors in AZ, to HELP rid the world of toxins and health hazards in INDOOR confined public spaces. NOTHING...it has nothing to do with it. No one said that banning smoking is the be-all, end-all of helping the enovironment and the general public's health, or that non-smokers are free from sin (wow...your reasoning has become laughable),yet, for some reason, you try to make that assertion, by claiming that there are other restrictions/bans/changes that should come about as well. Obviously there are many things that need to be done to protect the general public's health and well-being. An AZ smoking ban is one of them, and that's what this thread is about.
I can research puppy dogs or roller skating and "cite my sources" until I'm blue, but it won't help my argument at all because it has nothing to do with my argument...just like your "research" hasn't helped you to prove whatever point it is that you're trying to make. It won't change the fact that smoking indoors in public places is bad for everyone's health, and it's a good thing that the majority of voters in AZ have enacted a ban against it.
I "followed the pack" all right, for 25 years. I loved cigarettes. Now I have the end results...trouble breathing when I walk and go up stairs. My doctor feels that it is a direct result of smoking. I have to agree that all that smoke had to do damage to my lungs. I know, some people say that lung damage from cigarettes is not proven, but I am a believer. I thought it was cool to smoke when I started in 8th grade. I'm not so cool anymore!
I have a couple of friends who never smoked. Ate right, worked out, only drank when they were watching football, rode their bicycles to work every day for 10-years... they aren't breathing any more because of the respiratory disease from riding to work everyday.
Maybe you should feel fortunate. On the other hand, I see people all the time that can't walk a few feet without breathing heavy. More walking cures that.
Excellent points! Welcome aboard. We can always use a few more good researchers in this forum.
The biggest problem we are running into on this thread is the inability of SOME of the vehicle driving non-smokers to put up their hands and say..."Yes, you are right. I am also contributing to air pollution and the ill health of others." I had no problem with admitting that yes, I am aware that my smoking is part of the problem contributing to poor air quality. I had expected the same sort of maturity and honesty from those who are so vehemently against smoking because of what it does to the air and to health. I was wrong. It was too much to expect from them. Should have known better. After all, they have screamed so loudly and insistantly about how "nasty," "disgusting" and "dirty" that smoking is because of what it does to the air and health that they cannot bear to have those same rather degrading comments thrown back at themselves for also contributing to the problem through driving their vehicles. Its a classic case of denial and the inability to accept that which is factual about themselves and others.
You drive a car, you add significantly to the air quality problems. Accept it, get a good dose of reality, deal with it and do something about it or shut up about how bad the smokers are. Anyone who drives a car is no better than a smoker and has no valid grounds for complaint.
As for me, I believe I am done with this discussion. Its too much like arguing with a Fundamentalist or religious fanatic. They are great at preaching to others how bad and sinful they are, but when attention is drawn to their own failings or culpabilities they can't handle it, and refuse to acknowledge that they too have "sinned."
Ha, I like that. And fanatic is a good word for most people. Personally, I ride a motorcycle every single day (unless it's just a freezing rain going on). It uses a fraction of the gas and puts out an even smaller amount of exhaust toxins.
But I have to breathe those smelly lung-wrenching SUV's and I'm really tired of it! Everytime I come to a stop behind some truck or SUV I can feel myself dying. I smell the exhaust, I smell the trash, I smell everything - why would I possibly care about just another puff of smoke coming at me? I'm more concerned with good old mother of the year coming at me while she's looking up something on her cell phone or watching a movie while driving.
With all the people who are killed by automobiles every year one way or another, you'd think they would be illegal by now.
... What's your point? What does that have to do with banning smoking indoors in AZ, to HELP rid the world of toxins and health hazards in INDOOR confined public spaces. NOTHING...it has nothing to do with it. No one said that banning smoking is the be-all, end-all of helping the enovironment and the general public's health, ...
And who would be pathetic enough to move to Arizona just to spend all their time indoors?
Commercials, websites, news media, everyone is telling us that second hand smoke kills. So do bees, but I get the impression that I'm supposed to believe that one whiff of someones cigarette is going to irreversably harm me for the rest of my life. I'm not going to lie to my kids like that. Sure, I tell them not to smoke, but in no way am I going to tell them to throw rocks and run screaming if they see someone smoking... which is the message that I'm seeing here in Arizona.
Smoking is but a tiny fraction of a huge picture, and we're so busy looking at a piece of dust on the pillow that we're overlooking the fact that the seams have unraveled.
I'm sorry you people have had such terrible childhoods and want this fanatical unrealistic world, But stop taking it out on the rest of us who are busy living and really don't care. If I don't like something, I walk away from it. If you do something to annoy me I'll ask you to stop - not make a big campaign about it. Be an adult and stop running to mommy to do it for you.
Well, just in this thread there are three long-time Arizona residents who've said they're leaving because of how much the state has changed in recent years. I wonder how many more of us there are? With all the newcomers from California, Chicago, Philly and other bastions of big government, I guess it's not surprising that Arizona is adopting the big-government ways too. What a shame.
What concerns me the most about this discussion is not really the smoking ban itself. I'm not a smoker so it doesn't affect me at all. But what does concern me is the outright disregard for the property rights of others. Like I said earlier in this thread, the fact that bars and restaurants are privately-owned establishments is simply irrelevent to many people. It baffles me how people can rationalize that away as if it's not important. What is the basis of thinking that a business owner has to accomodate the wishes of anyone who chooses to walk in the door? And what's truly frightening is how some people seem to revel in the power of being in the majority and how that means they get to force their will upon others.
When a majority of people have no qualms about disregarding property rights, do you really think your home will somehow remain unaffected? History shows us that that is not the case. History is replete with examples of where the well-intentioned majority has caused great harm to many people. I shudder to think of what it's going to take to make Americans realize what they have so willingly given up. A government that is powerful enough to give you every little thing you want, is powerful enough to take away what is most important to you.
Today when I was walking into a Circle K I had a lit cigarette in my hand so I placed it in the ashtray, still burning, within twenty feet of the door. I always do that and then pick it up on the way out. That is unless some bum swipes it before I get back outside.
Here's what the new law says.....................
"SMOKING" MEANS INHALING, EXHALING, BURNING, OR CARRYING OR POSSESSING ANY LIGHTED TOBACCO PRODUCT, INCLUDING CIGARS, CIGARETTES, PIPE TOBACCO AND ANY OTHER LIGHTED TOBACCO PRODUCT.
Circle K needs to move the trash cans they have with the ashtray attached. They can't be within twenty feet of the door.
ALL ASHTRAYS SHALL BE REMOVED FROM ANY AREA WHERE SMOKING IS PROHIBITED
We all know that us smokers are a bunch of lazy slobs, I'll probably just be pitching my butts on the ground if there's not an ashtray or other means of disposing of my smoke.
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