sitting still @ green lights, left arrows (Phoenix, Tucson: real estate, insurance, floor)

[Magnum Mike]

Originally Posted by Bummer

LOL @ LVGAZ . . . "road rage"?

What better way to initiate a road rage incident than to show total disrespect to a driver behind you?

LOL @ Bummer.. whatever happened to the good 'ole days, when we got upset at another driver, we either called him/her every name in the book, or initiated "road rage" by simply mooning him ( or her) !

[diggitydot]

I think I'd prefer to err on the side of caution rather than argue over which of us was right after I've just been creamed by a red light runner.

[wit-nit]

aj661...my neighbor, a retired Phoenix Policeman says you are wrong. Here are some excerpts from various sources ie ARS, schoolsafety classes, and general rule throughout the US. I just talked to a Glendale Traffic Officer and he backs me up also. And the Judge in our case backed up the officers ticket. And the accident happened exactly the way I told it at 43rd ave and Thunderbird. And when my wife went to the traffic school they said the same thing as I'm telling you.
If you want to argue it, then I suggest you talk to all the police departments and give them a seminar on ticket writing. We know what happened to us and the results of our investigation as stated above.

Here are some of the excerpts from the Arizona Revised Statues, the House, the Safety Classes etal:
The operator of a vehicle intending to turn to the left within an intersection or into
an alley, private road, or driveway shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle
approaching from the opposite direction which is within the intersection or so close
thereto as to constitute an immediate hazard.

The operator of a vehicle about to enter or cross a roadway from any place other
than another roadway shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles approaching on the
roadway to be entered or crossed.

Who Has the Right of Way?
The concept of the right of way is important to understand since the law never really grants the right of way. The law simply states when the right of way must be yielded. Right of way can be used when the law permits its use by requiring that others yield the right of way to you. Failure to yield the right of way leads to crashes in all states. There are some ways for you to reduce this probability when you are driving however. Right of way must be yielded to other drivers in the following instances:
• At a yield sign;
• To pedestrians in a crosswalk;
• To persons using a seeing eye guide dog;
• To persons using a white cane with or without a red tip;
• At uncontrolled intersections where vehicles are already in the intersection;
• At “T” intersections where you must yield to vehicles on the through road;
• When turning left in which case you must yield to oncoming pedestrians, cars, etc.;
• When driving on an unpaved road that intersections with a paved road; and
• When returning to the roadway after the car is parked.
Who has the right of way?
The law gives the right of way to no one, but it does state who must yield (give up) the right of way. Every driver, motorcyclist, moped rider, bicyclist, and pedestrian must do everything possible to avoid a crash. When you yield the right of way to another vehicle, you are letting them go before you in the traffic situation. Few areas of traffic safety are more misunderstood than the “Yield to the Driver on the Right” rule. This is the rule that controls most intersections when drivers arrive at an intersection simultaneously.
Before proceeding through an intersection you need to look to your left first, and then look to your right, and then look back to your left. Even while at traffic lights that provide you with a green light, you should follow this practice. Another driver could endanger you and themselves by not obeying their red stop signal and your observations back and forth may provide you with just enough foresight and forethought to avoid or lessen such a dangerous encounter.

[aj661]

MR. nitram, this argument is a waste of time. The majority of what you posted is irrelevant. I'm not interested in traffic school text and theory. We were discussing collisions within an intersection controlled by traffic signals. So you talked to your retired PPD neighbor and a Glendale traffic cop. Good for you. By all means, do what they say. It does not however, alter the facts of 28-645A1. They were probably referring to 28-772. I know there are officers out there who will use 772 without exception, but they're wrong in doing so. It is intended for use primarily at intersections with no traffic controls for two directions, and stop signs for the other two. With an average four second yellow phase and a one second four way red phase, there is never an excuse for running a red light if the driver is paying attention. There are circumstances in which a driver turning left within an intersection can do all that is reasonable and still get hit by a red light runner. I have only known a handful of officers who would punish the victim of a red light runner "just because they could". We had technical term for officers who wrote those kind of citations: Chicken-****. 28-772 can be applied if the officer doesn't know any better, wants to issue an attitude ticket, is competing for that toaster oven at the end of the month or is way behind his quota and needs to hang some paper. 28-645A1 protects those victims and is what I and the vast majority of former coworkers applied in those situations. 28-645A1 offers civil protection for diligent drivers from idiots committing a serious and potentially deadly traffic violation.

Please feel free to have the last word, sir. Obviously I'm not going to sway your opinion, just as I could point out to "m1ndless" where he is wrong but why should I bother? I have better things to do with my time. Hopefully this at least enlightens others to some traffic laws. Have a good day.


Title 28 in it's entirety can be found at:
Arizona Revised Statutes

[Valley Native]

I think this has gotten off the topic. What upsets many drivers isn't the fact that some people are being cautious ... it's the annoyance of the car ahead of them not moving on a green light/arrow when the coast IS clear. This inattentiveness is what causes impatience.

It's funny because in so many cases, I can usually tell who is going to be the inattentive one or the slowpoke right before I get behind them:
* Driver hanging his/her arm out the window, and/or draping the other arm across the passenger seat
* Wheelchair license plate
* Kids in vehicle being unruly
* Trucks with heavy loads
* Large sized cars with V8 engines (Cadillacs, Buicks, and many Oldsmobiles)
* Driver and passenger having a conversation, distracting them from paying attention to traffic
* Driver multi tasking (talking on cell phone, playing with the radio, eating, shaving, reading, putting on makeup, etc.)

[toomuchsunshine]

we rarely honk around here, if ever. if someone honks, you flip them off. it was an honest mistake, everyone does it. you're thinking about something after work or a long day and miss a green turn arrow. let's give everyone some slack and the benefit of the doubt that we all know how to drive and passed our license exams.

[wit-nit]

aj661
I'm not going to argue the case. It's not my opinion but the courts.You can believe all you want. Your quoted statute is not the only one on the books.
The judge stated in the case "when making a left turn, the vehicle making a left turn must not proceed until ALL vehicles come to a complete stop regardless what the signal indicate". That all drivers must excercise reasonable and prudent judgement when making a left turn.
The judge, the police officer, the Glendale officer and my police neighbor all agree. That's the law, and you'll have to go to the Supreme Court if you want to change it.
We were allowed to sue for damages and injuries, but could not protest or win the ticket argument for the above reason.
You know if a driver is driving the speed limit, as in this case, he/she is legal until he crosses the line at the crosswalk. So unless you are 100% sure that the driver is going to stop, you must wait and see if they do no matter what the color of the signal is.

[43north87west]

IMO there are a couple of factors that I've seen. First it just seems as if people in general are becoming more self absorbed. Especially younger generations. Interestingly, I found that honking twice quickly yields less finger displays. Kind of like a friendly honk. A big long blast of the horn is usually not as well received.

The other is the backwards turn arrows such as Scottsdale has, they are a little bit unexpected for some drivers, as another post said. Another weird one for out of area drivers, is the double right turn on red lanes. Some states don't allow that, so often people don't go.

The last factor is that people need to grow up and consider their actions before they get angry that someone honks the horn.

I honked the horn at an impending disaster as a minivan pulled a suicide lane change into my lane on the 101. Mom was swatting at the kids from the driver's seat, great situation. When we exited at Scottsdale road, the mom was nice enough to screech up beside me and unleash a torrent of merchant marine type language at me, never mind that I didn't do anything except let her know with my horn that she was about to crash into me. Life goes on, right?

Kids weren't in seat belts either. Wonderful. And she's yelling at me... Mom proceeded to screech her tires and fly down Scottsdale Road, just to get her picture taken as she tore past the Scottsdale Police van parked south of Mayo Blvd. I got a good laugh out of that but I stayed away from her at the next stoplight. You never know what people will do.

Having said all of this, I have to wonder what made people so self centered. Then they get angry at their own stupid actions and take it out on others. That may just be a problem in the West--seems worse out here than back east. But I think it is getting to be a problem everywhere.

[Bummer]

Beautifully stated, 43North . . .

[wit-nit]

aj661
ARS 28-645-A1 does not apply in my wife's situation. It does not even come close to addressing it.
ARS 28-772 does and if you have any doubts then the officer who wrote the ticket, Officer Gerry Lee of the Phoenix Police Motor Traffic Patrol would be the one you need to address your concerns and opinion to, and also the court system. We only try to follow the rules. Apparently the police have different opinions than the courts, or cannot agree within themselves. Judges seem to agree with whatever an officer says is the gods truth. That we cannot control. And since other officers in the valley seem to agree with our scenario, not yours, then all drivers need to beware.
God speed, thanks for your service.

28-772.
Vehicle turning left at intersection
The driver of a vehicle within an intersection intending to turn to the left shall yield the right-of-way to a vehicle that is approaching from the opposite direction and that is within the intersection or so close to the intersection as to constitute an immediate hazard.

And that is what the policeman and the court said to my wife. She did not yield to the oncomming vehicle and that constituted a hazard situation. If she stayed stopped and let the violater continue, then there would have been no accident, so say's the judicial system.