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I think the problem with HK protestors is that there's a huge section of them that are antagonistic towards not just the CCP, but people from Mainland China in general. This is a pretty grave misstep, because while the general populace of PRC cannot vote, they can be very vocal and have caused PRC government policies to soften or change direction in the past with enough obvious social pressure from the population.
Instead of trying to win a proportion of the Mainland Chinese, many of whom have been more vocal in their criticism of the CCP and whose influencers are of and can reach a much larger population than HKers themselves, on to their side with talk about ideals of what they want, what gets the most attention among Mainland Chinese is instead snide jabs about Mainland Chinese as people or outright hostility. It's frankly just an incredibly stupid thing to do, and unfortunately some Taiwanese are also going along the same lines as that.
Lol how cute. There is nothing more naive than believing that you can influence 1.4 billion brainwashed meatloaves.
I am so sick of this "separate the people and the government" bull**** because you know what? It's always used as an excuse for despicable regimes. Everyone deserves the government they end up with. Inviting them to your pathetic ****ing tea parties will NEVER work on a people that have been indoctrinated by their government for so many decades.
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Originally Posted by Camlon
You seriously need a history lesson. There were no riots in Norwegian cities during the war, and the two months of fighting was mainly a tactical retreat to wait for allied troops. After that, Norway mainly focused on secret actions to hurt the nazi regime, not violent protests.
So you are saying that HKers should focus on secret actions to hurt the CCP regime instead of protests?
You watch too many spy movies.
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Hong Kong people did not have exremly little freedom before this protest. It was ranked as one of the most free cities in Asia. Norway under the occupation of Germany did not have the same freedoms Hong Kong had a year ago. So yes, they should treasure what they have, because as we can see, they can easily lose it.
First of all, being "one of the freest cities in Asia" is practically the same as being the brightest kid in a special education school. Give me a ****ing break.
And the fact that you even began to compare civil liberties in Hong Kong in 2020 to one of the greatest disasters in history is really a sight. I guess no one is allowed to protest unless the situation has worsened to the point of Nazism because "they can easily lose it"? You need to shut the **** up.
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Originally Posted by Camlon
You guys have become paronoid. Try to consider the thought that I am not masquerading, I am just a moderate who is trying to tell you that the protests in Hong Kong are counterproductive. "If we burn, then you will burn with us" is a stupid strategy to get more freedom for Hong Kong.
No one is paranoid. You have made your points very clear.
Last edited by Greysholic; 05-29-2020 at 11:37 AM..
Lol how cute. There is nothing more naive than believing that you can influence 1.4 billion brainwashed meatloaves.
That, to me, is an idiotic response. I've lived in Shanghai before and have met plenty of native mainlanders both there and abroad. There is a large contingent of fairly influential people that chafe at the government, and there are concrete examples of the government responding in kind due to local outrage. Many mainland Chinese are aware that the government can step over the line, and sometimes they are called on it. There are also many first and second generation Chinese immigrants in other countries that have done extremely well for themselves and also have political leanings against the CCP, but you really don't bring them into the cause by saying that as a group, as a people, they are lesser subhumans rather than attacking the practices of CCP alongside them.
What is actually truly naive is to think that other powers far from the region with people with no real skin in the game or familiarity to the region would exert enough power on behalf of HKers or Taiwanese people to by itself make much of a difference in the trajectory of how things go. It is sheer stupidity to also alienate others. If there is an idea to try to bring other powers in under loftier goals of human dignity and self-determination, then also broadcasting such frankly bigoted and inhumane things about the people of China rather than the government of China is contradictory and pushes more people away. That tactic is just all-around idiotic on both the push and pull.
Almost unbelievably stupid, but it apparently very much exists.
That, to me, is an idiotic response. I've lived in Shanghai before and have met plenty of native mainlanders both there and abroad. There is a large contingent of fairly influential people that chafe at the government, and there are concrete examples of the government responding in kind due to local outrage. Many mainland Chinese are aware that the government can step over the line, and sometimes they are called on it.
They respond to local outrage, sure, but if you actually believe that you can "win them over" on severely indoctrinated topics such as Hong Kong and Taiwan you are simply deluded. How many Chinese nationals have you converted into supporting Taiwan's international participation? I will be willing to bet that it's very close to zero.
Not even those who have emigrated overseas. They either don't give a **** at all or would still cling on to their retarded Chinese dream. Case on point: botticelli, who used to be around here. He left China like a billion years ago and in his eyes China could do no wrong. However, he never seemed to have any problem bashing Canada, a country that welcomed him with open arms, whenever he had the chance to. Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans like him are a dime a dozen. I'm sure you are aware of them.
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What is actually truly naive is to think that other powers far from the region would exert enough power on behalf of HKers or Taiwanese people to by itself make much of a difference in the trajectory of how things go. It is sheer stupidity to also alienate others. If there is an idea to try to bring other powers in under loftier goals of human dignity and self-determination, then also broadcasting such frankly bigoted and inhumane things about the people of China rather than the government of China is contradictory and pushes more people away. That tactic is just all-around idiotic on both the push and pull.
What is actually truly naive is to think that resorting to human dignity and self-determination would bring in any foreign supporting powers. No one is arguing that.
They respond to local outrage, sure, but if you actually believe that you can "win them over" on severely indoctrinated topics such as Hong Kong and Taiwan you are simply deluded. How many Chinese nationals have you converted into supporting Taiwan's international participation? I will be willing to bet that it's very close to zero.
What is actually truly naive is to think that resorting to human dignity and self-determination would bring in any foreign supporting powers. No one is doing that.
Yea, you can actually, because there's always a base that's strongly anti-CCP within China.
Shanghai has a sizable number of people including Mainland Chinese who are against the CCP taking in Taiwan by coercion and many who believe that CCP rule over Taiwan would be disastrous and the saber-rattling is a diversion. I didn't really have to convert anyone, because many were already on the side of CCP rule over HK and Taiwan was bad.
Also, why do you think CCP was so big on nabbing booksellers in HK despite the obvious bad international press and riling up HKers? It's not so much a problem that HK has anti-CCP propaganda--that's just a lot of the general sentiment within HK and a known quantity. The problem is they were being purchased by mainlanders and bringing them back to China. That's part of what mainlanders and others get flagged for searches coming into China as that's one of the main contrabands. It's part of a fairly large alignment, which has worsened, between politically active HKers and politically active mainlanders who are anti-CCP.
That second thing about "no one is doing that" is also obviously mistaken. A lot of HK protestors are pushing that angle. You see it in the banners they wave, especially in the English language, and in their contacting of non-Chinese media. It is very obviously part of the loose strategy, and even though it is unlikely to be successful all on itself, it is being tried by many.
Yea, the path towards getting enough clout among influential mainland Chinese nationals and to bring enough of a more international community on the side of HK and Taiwan looks like an incredibly tough one that may not have much of a satisfactory resolution. It's possible they may both be lost causes. However, aggressive preemptive alienation of mainlanders on personal levels isn't just bigoted, but also an incredibly stupid strategy that worsens the already tough odds. I hear other Taiwanese around me say stuff like that and I just want to slap them upside the head and ask why they're being so idiotic and want so much to guarantee a moribund near future for Taiwanese independence. Instead, I try to calmly explain why I think it's bad practice.
I understand that you're generally a pessimistic parade pisser, but try thinking the logic through on this for at least a couple beats here.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 05-29-2020 at 12:10 PM..
Yea, you can actually, because there's always a base that's strongly anti-CCP within China.
Shanghai has a sizable number of people including Mainland Chinese who are against the CCP taking in Taiwan by coercion and many who believe that CCP rule over Taiwan would be bad. I didn't really have to convert anyone, because many were already on the side of CCP rule over HK and Taiwan was bad.
Shanghai has like 25 million people. I wonder how sizable that number could be. 200?
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Also, why do you think CCP was so big on nabbing booksellers in HK? It's not so much a problem that HK has anti-CCP propaganda--that's just a lot of the general sentiment. The problem is they were being purchased by mainlanders and bringing them back to the Mainland. That's why mainlanders and others get flagged for searches as that's one of the main contrabands.
Because they are setting an example? How many copies could possibly be brought into China? Certainly not enough to affect CCP's brutality.
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That second thing about no one is doing that is also obviously mistaken. A lot of HK protestors are pushing that angle. You see it in the banners they wave, especially in the English language, and in their contacting of non-Chinese media. It is very obviously part of the strategy, and even though it is unlikely to be successful all on itself, it is being tried.
It is one strategy, but no one is naive enough to actually believe that it alone would be successful.
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Yea, the path towards getting enough clout among influential mainland Chinese nationals and to bring enough of a more international community on the side of HK and Taiwan looks like an incredibly tough one that may not have much of a satisfactory resolution. It's possible they may be a lost cause. However, preemptive alienation of mainlanders isn't just bigoted, but also an incredibly stupid strategy that worsens the already tough odds.
Well, I am of the opinion that this path has never beeen remotely possible precisely because Chinese people are beyond help.
And this goes beyond China. The "communication" tactic is overrated. The same goes for every single controversy. Be it racism, religion, sexuality etc. Some people (or in this case, most people) simply could not be reached. When you know they wouldn't listen why even bother giving a **** about them? They certainly don't give a **** about you.
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I hear other Taiwanese around me say stuff like that and I just want to slap them upside the head and ask why they're being so idiotic and want so much to guarantee a moribund near future for Taiwanese independence. Instead, I try to calmly explain why I think it's bad practice.
I understand that you're generally a pessimistic parade pisser, but try thinking the logic through on this for at least a couple beats here.
You genuinely believe that there's even a slight possibility that Taiwanese independence can be achieved through Chinese people's support? I am trying to be polite here because I think you are a cool person, but I have some laughing-my-ass-off's to do.
Last edited by Greysholic; 05-29-2020 at 12:20 PM..
Also, why do you think CCP was so big on nabbing booksellers in HK? It's not so much a problem that HK has anti-CCP propaganda--that's just a lot of the general sentiment. The problem is they were being purchased by mainlanders and bringing them back to China. That's part of what mainlanders and others get flagged for searches as that's one of the main contrabands.
A few posts back, that is exactly the same point I was trying to make about prohibiting the transport of forbidden literature over the border into the Mainland and which ties into my other points. The fact of the matter is many Mainland Chinese are just as curious about gossip and would love to have a laugh about Xi Jin Ping in bed with his secretary but gossiping about things like that is an absolute no-no in the Mainland because 1) it is embarassing and 2) it would lead to gossiping about state secrets. Because Hong Kong is increasingly integrated into the Mainland, Mainland Chinese are increasingly able to get their hands on forbidden literature. The best way to prevent that is to disintegrate Hong Kong from the Mainland but that quite obviously is not China's intentions right now.
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Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Yea, the path towards getting enough clout among influential mainland Chinese nationals and to bring enough of a more international community on the side of HK and Taiwan looks like an incredibly tough one that may not have much of a satisfactory resolution. It's possible they may be lost causes. However, preemptive alienation of mainlanders isn't just bigoted, but also an incredibly stupid strategy that worsens the already tough odds. I hear other Taiwanese around me say stuff like that and I just want to slap them upside the head and ask why they're being so idiotic and want so much to guarantee a moribund near future for Taiwanese independence. Instead, I try to calmly explain why I think it's bad practice.
Ironic isn't it. There have been Mainland Chinese risking their lives and fortunes crossing over into Hong Kong and supporting the protesters and this is the thanks they get in return. The mindset of some of these youngsters are in stark contrast to the older generation who considered Mainlanders and themselves pretty much one and the same.
Ironic isn't it. There have been Mainland Chinese risking their lives and fortunes crossing over into Hong Kong and supporting the protesters and this is the thanks they get in return. The mindset of some of these youngsters are in stark contrast to the older generation who considered Mainlanders and themselves pretty much one and the same.
Yeah like 12 out of 1.4 billion. Bless their hearts but their fellow countrymen's actions and words make it very easy to overlook their sacrifices.
Shanghai has like 25 million people. I wonder how sizable that number could be. 200?
Because they are setting an example? How many copies could possibly be brought into China? Certainly not enough to affect CCP's brutality.
It is one strategy, but no one is naive enough to actually believe that it alone would be successful.
Well, I am of the opinion that this path has never beeen remotely possible precisely because Chinese people are beyond help.
And this goes beyond China. The "communication" tactic is overrated. The same goes for every single controversy. Be it racism, religion, sexuality etc. Some people (or in this case, most people) simply could not be reached. When you know they wouldn't listen why even bother giving a **** about them? They certainly don't give a **** about you.
Shanghai is immensely inequitable with the wealthy have a lot more influence in multiple ways and a lot of the wealthy say things that are more than just ambiguous about CCP in private, so even smaller numbers who think about this compared to a much larger number who don't really consider the issue at all can still be impactful. You also have to remember that anti-CCP resentment boils over and gets crushed pretty quickly, but it's not like the people who gathered and then got scattered then suddenly fell in love with the party afterwards. Use your head a bit.
Do you understand what happens to these books? They get moved and copied and even if the books themselves are not disseminated in massive quantities, the people reading them disseminate the ideas. It's how ground level resistance works in authoritarian states.
Are you sure that no protestor is pinning their hopes on foreign powers to lean on China? That seems pretty ridiculous, because there aren't too many other viable endgoal paths. There's general frustration driving protests, sure, but what about actually trying to get somewhere with that frustration. It's also not a bad strategy, it's just hard for that to work by itself. There aren't too many other reasonable strategies out there aside from trying to get more Chinese to support and fewer to be aggressively for strongarm tactics in HK and Taiwan. You also have to think--what does personally attacking Chinese nationals in blanket statements as people really get you in steps towards any useful endgoal? Just venting a bit of frustration with some casual bigotry? Just get a quick thrill that alienates others who can help you, but doesn't actually get you anything useful in return?
I see--so you're pretty much on the side of give up and kvetch. What you're saying is wrong by the way. The groundswell for Solidarity in Poland was very much about reaching out to other countries for support especially among the larger Polish diaspora while slowly building internal networks. In the US, and likely elsewhere, LGBT acceptance and laws outlawing discrimination didn't start by LGBT people in throngs telling people who weren't LGBT that they were the ones who were subhumans and inferior and alienating potential allies en masse instead of cultivating them despite the many points within society at that point who were brainwashing the masses into thinking homosexuality was going to be the death of civilization (or that you were going to bring the endtimes). Your logic on this is so incredibly bad and a-historic. Again, consider thinking things over before talking.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 05-29-2020 at 12:30 PM..
Yeah like 12 out of 1.4 billion. Bless their hearts but their fellow countrymen's actions and words make it very easy to overlook their sacrifices.
You think there are a grand total of 12 anti-CCP dissidents near the border locked up or killed in recent years? Is this where we start accusing you of being a CCP shill and part of the wumao? Is the goal to pretend you don't absolutely love the CCP, but to parody anti-CCP people by saying one ridiculous thing after the other. I don't believe that's the case, but maybe you're playing some 3 dimensional chess here.
One thing that's probably true is that the numbers probably go down as it becomes more attacks on mainland Chinese as people rather than against the CCP and its policies.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 05-29-2020 at 12:51 PM..
Yea, and Shanghai is immensely inequitable with the wealthy have a lot more influence in multiple ways and a lot of the wealthy say things that are more than just ambiguous about CCP in private. Anti-CCP resentment boils over and gets crushed pretty quickly, but it's not like the people who gathered and then got scattered then suddenly fell in love with the party afterwards. Use your head for once.
I know they exist, but the reality is they are way too few in number. If they wanted to instigate change they would have done so. CCP has been in power for 7 decades. The reality is their only effort was thwarted in 1989 and they never bothered again since.
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Do you understand what happens to these books? They get moved and copied and even if the books themselves are not disseminated, the people reading them disseminate the ideas. It's how ground level resistance works in authoritarian states.
Their resistance would not be about supporting Taiwan or Hong Kong. Their ideals are against CCP, sure, but that does not equate their support for Taiwan or for Hong Kong. Many who are against CCP are also staunchly against Taiwan's international participation and HK's protests, the two are not mutually exclusive. Like I said, China's territorial integrity is a 70-year long indoctrination.
Bless their hearts for their grassroot resistance (which is practically non-existent, btw, no matter how many books might have been smuggled into China), but it is ultimately for China's own democratic movement, which have nothing to do with Taiwan or Hong Kong, nor do we care (I certainly don't).
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Are you sure that no protestor is relying on foreign powers to lean on China? That seems pretty ridiculous, because there aren't too many other viable endgoal paths. There's general frustration driving protests, sure, but what about actually trying to get somewhere with that frustration.
The callings on self-determination and human dignity are legit, but to believe that these alone could attract foreign intervention is beyond naive. They are more excuses for intervention than stand-alone messages. Ultimately, it's about national interests. To manipulate the animosity between China and other countries (well, basically just the US at this point since the EU couldn't care less, nor do they have the capacity) is their only shot, and this angle yields the strongest legitimacy.
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I see--so you're pretty much on the side of give up and kvetch. What you're saying is wrong by the way. The groundswell for Solidarity in Poland was very much about reaching out to other countries for support while slowly building internal networks. LGBT acceptance and laws outlining discrimination didn't start by LGBT people in throngs telling people who weren't LGBT that they were the ones who were subhumans and inferior and alienating more possible allies. Your logic on this is so incredibly bad and a-historic. Again, consider thinking things over before talking.
If you actually believe in the power of communication, be my guest. I just want to remind you that Poland eventually gained independence because USSR collapsed overnight, if it were up to the Soviets they never would have pulled through, and the LGBT movement is not remotely comparable to Taiwan or Hong Kong's problem with China.
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You think there are a grand total of 12 anti-CCP dissidents near the border locked up or killed in recent years? Is this where we start accusing you of being a CCP shill and part of the wumao? Is the goal to pretend you don't absolutely love the CCP, but to parody anti-CCP people by saying one ridiculous thing after the other. I don't believe that's the case, but maybe you're playing some 3 dimensional chess here.
12 was obviously a metaphor for "very few".
Last edited by Greysholic; 05-29-2020 at 01:19 PM..
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