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while there are other factors, the political system, in my belief, has a significant influence on the pandemic. So we can't talk about the covid handling without politics because we are in an election year, and our president politicized covid from day one.
just compare how many times our president talks about covid vs any other country's leaders. In other countries like china, they are appointing an expert or a team of expert to lead the effort in fighting the virus. And the US? we have experts speaking the opposite of our president
in china, many officials (many in wuhan) was fired for covering up or not taking actions to prevent the infection. in the US, you have public health experts resigning for not agreeing with city/state official guidelines.
in conclusion, in china/asia, you have experts/scientists leading the effort in fighting the virus, while in the US/west, we have dirty politicians using this for political gains
I don't agree.
Well, first of all we must be aware this is the Asia forum, not the US forum. Per the OP it seems to be about west (Europe/the America's) vs. east (Asia) so it's not even about the US. There is no reason to turn this into a US political topic - that's what the P&C forum is for, plus it attracts the ultra-partisan nutcases that participate in that forum into this forum, and we already had a glimpse of that in the second post. It's not constructive.
So let's keep it about Asia. But Asia collectively has probably the most diverse political systems in the world - communism, socialism, one party and multi-party systems, authoritative and democratic. Prosperous and developing countries. It's a diverse region politically and economically. But one thing in common, sort of, is the culture. Focus on that second paragraph - what makes Asian's in general more obedient to the government? With some exceptions of course. What enables a country like Korea, otherwise fully democratic, to allow the government to monitor personal cell phones to combat COVID, to the extent of sending the police if an infected persons cell phone was turned off. It was extremely effective - but also extremely intrusive. And Koreans were OK with it. I don't think it's the science (unless we include surveillance technology), I don't see any vaccine coming from Asia yet, on the contrary we see China trying to steal western vaccine research. So again I submit it's the culture of Asia itself, which has it's roots in religion.
Not sure what you mean by China "leading the effort to fight the virus". Not sure if that's a joke. Obviously - they caused the virus (not intentionally, but still) and tried to hide it's impact from the world. At this point, it's not even subject to debate.
What about New Zealand? They managed to get 100 days without any cases. That allowed them to open up their economy in a way that for instance Sweden never could.
This resulted in much better economic data, NZ unemployment is still 4% while Sweden unemployment increased from 6% to 9%. Their GDP dropped by 0.2 year over year while Sweden dropped by 7.7â„…. And even more important, they avoided having lots of deaths and forcing vulnerable people to isolate for a half year.
Lockdowns work, but they need to be short term, effective and should be done early. Countries like Spain failed on every aspect, they kept the lockdown for too long, it was not done correctly and they waited till they had tens or even hundreds of thousands cases per day. Of course they are going to fail.
All of Australia had a lockdown in April for about a month. Details varied between the states. All states but Victoria, which accounts for about a quarter of the population, emerged and have only had small numbers of community cases. Only Victoria has had to go into a second lockdown.
We are a western country but with a significant Asian population. You certainly see Asians wearing masks much more, as we have seen for a long time. But the approval ratings for all our politicians is high at the moment even though there are quite nasty disputes on border reopenings.
So let's keep it about Asia. But Asia collectively has probably the most diverse political systems in the world - communism, socialism, one party and multi-party systems, authoritative and democratic. Prosperous and developing countries. It's a diverse region politically and economically. But one thing in common, sort of, is the culture. Focus on that second paragraph - what makes Asian's in general more obedient to the government? With some exceptions of course. What enables a country like Korea, otherwise fully democratic, to allow the government to monitor personal cell phones to combat COVID, to the extent of sending the police if an infected persons cell phone was turned off. It was extremely effective - but also extremely intrusive. And Koreans were OK with it. I don't think it's the science (unless we include surveillance technology), I don't see any vaccine coming from Asia yet, on the contrary we see China trying to steal western vaccine research. So again I submit it's the culture of Asia itself, which has it's roots in religion.
Not sure what you mean by China "leading the effort to fight the virus". Not sure if that's a joke. Obviously - they caused the virus (not intentionally, but still) and tried to hide it's impact from the world. At this point, it's not even subject to debate.
We can also ask, "What makes Hong Kong people wear their masks in general and without rancor, even though many of them dislikes or distrusts their government, in particular, the Chief Executive?"
I think it's just that public health is generally something that there is more consensus over in a lot of Asian countries, that it isn't as politicized as it is in the USA. Not really about obediance or culture. Something to do with SARS in 2003, which wasn't all that long ago.
Similarly, Australia and NZ, which have a very different cultural background than say Korea, Japan, China, Taiwan, HK, etc., also responded decisively and implemented protective health measures without rancor or much controversy, again, compared with their Yank counterparts across the Pacific.
I don't agree.
Well, first of all we must be aware this is the Asia forum, not the US forum. Per the OP it seems to be about west (Europe/the America's) vs. east (Asia) so it's not even about the US. There is no reason to turn this into a US political topic - that's what the P&C forum is for, plus it attracts the ultra-partisan nutcases that participate in that forum into this forum, and we already had a glimpse of that in the second post. It's not constructive.
So let's keep it about Asia. But Asia collectively has probably the most diverse political systems in the world - communism, socialism, one party and multi-party systems, authoritative and democratic. Prosperous and developing countries. It's a diverse region politically and economically. But one thing in common, sort of, is the culture. Focus on that second paragraph - what makes Asian's in general more obedient to the government? With some exceptions of course. What enables a country like Korea, otherwise fully democratic, to allow the government to monitor personal cell phones to combat COVID, to the extent of sending the police if an infected persons cell phone was turned off. It was extremely effective - but also extremely intrusive. And Koreans were OK with it. I don't think it's the science (unless we include surveillance technology), I don't see any vaccine coming from Asia yet, on the contrary we see China trying to steal western vaccine research. So again I submit it's the culture of Asia itself, which has it's roots in religion.
Not sure what you mean by China "leading the effort to fight the virus". Not sure if that's a joke. Obviously - they caused the virus (not intentionally, but still) and tried to hide it's impact from the world. At this point, it's not even subject to debate.
I don't know how you got that. where did I say "china leading the effort to fight the virus"?
please read again, I said that in china/asia, the effort to fight the virus is lead by scientists/experts. but in the west, you have presidents/PM's or whatever political leader that has zero knowledge about this telling addressing the citizens on a continuously basis about locking down/social distancing and wearing masks.
that's the difference right there. In asia people are listening to experts based on scientific facts, in the west people are listening to political leaders only if they like that leader. So it's science vs politics, you be the judge.
What about New Zealand? They managed to get 100 days without any cases. That allowed them to open up their economy in a way that for instance Sweden never could.
This resulted in much better economic data, NZ unemployment is still 4% while Sweden unemployment increased from 6% to 9%. Their GDP dropped by 0.2 year over year while Sweden dropped by 7.7â„…. And even more important, they avoided having lots of deaths and forcing vulnerable people to isolate for a half year.
Lockdowns work, but they need to be short term, effective and should be done early. Countries like Spain failed on every aspect, they kept the lockdown for too long, it was not done correctly and they waited till they had tens or even hundreds of thousands cases per day. Of course they are going to fail.
Interesting, interesting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714
Forget the politics, forget (in fact totally ignore) the nonsensical second post in this thread, forget COVID even as the below is applicable to every day life.
It's really Asian cultural - obey authority, respect hierarchy. It has it's roots in the buddhist concept of Filial Piety that carries into the culture even if one isn't religious. It also focuses more on collectivism, focusing on the needs of society as a whole and to prioritize group harmony. Again, it has it's root in eastern religions.
So of course with these two elements, even for Asian democracies, they are more prone to obey authority and directives.
In the west, particularly the U.S., we are quite the opposite - encouraged to question even little thing, distrust the government, focus on the individual. Of course, there are good and bad points to both cultural items - taken to the the extreme the above Asian philosophies brought us Japanese kamikaze pilots and the fanaticism of WW2, as well as Chinese Communism and the 35 million deaths from the Chinese "Great Leap Forward".
Great post! Lots of good info!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714
I second that! The "child" obviously has another agenda that does not fit in this topic.
Yep! hahaha. So comical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maomao
while there are other factors, the political system, in my belief, has a significant influence on the pandemic. So we can't talk about the covid handling without politics because we are in an election year, and our president politicized covid from day one.
just compare how many times our president talks about covid vs any other country's leaders. In other countries like china, they are appointing an expert or a team of expert to lead the effort in fighting the virus. And the US? we have experts speaking the opposite of our president
in china, many officials (many in wuhan) was fired for covering up or not taking actions to prevent the infection. in the US, you have public health experts resigning for not agreeing with city/state official guidelines.
in conclusion, in china/asia, you have experts/scientists leading the effort in fighting the virus, while in the US/west, we have dirty politicians using this for political gains
In short:
No, its not just the U.S. that has politicized this virus. If anything, its a world wide politicization. China has had MASSIVE cover ups and has been terribly dishonest, not to mention they have the WHO paid for. Then there's what I call the "Great Vaccine Rush!" where there's billions of dollars being invested in the vaccines. Its not just an issue with the U.S., its a global politicized virus like no other virus before it.
It ultimately boils down to government response. Australia and New Zealand have handled it quite well and these two countries are quintessentially Western.
The difference between good response (like Australia, NZ, Korea etc.) and perfect response (aka Taiwan), however, boils down to extreme distrust towards China. Basically, the less vigilant you are with China, the more you get ****ed in the ass.
We can also ask, "What makes Hong Kong people wear their masks in general and without rancor, even though many of them dislikes or distrusts their government, in particular, the Chief Executive?"
I think it's just that public health is generally something that there is more consensus over in a lot of Asian countries, that it isn't as politicized as it is in the USA. Not really about obediance or culture. Something to do with SARS in 2003, which wasn't all that long ago.
Similarly, Australia and NZ, which have a very different cultural background than say Korea, Japan, China, Taiwan, HK, etc., also responded decisively and implemented protective health measures without rancor or much controversy, again, compared with their Yank counterparts across the Pacific.
Yes true on all accounts, I wasn't including OZ or NZ, totally different culture from the rest of Asia.
Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, etc - yes indeed they are used to strange viruses coming from China (i.e. SARS) and just by geographic proximity to they are pre-prepared. So that is a factor, agreed.
I don't know how you got that. where did I say "china leading the effort to fight the virus"?
Umm...it was a direct quote below. It makes no difference including 'experts/scientists'. Your responses like above make it hard to know if you are serious or not or just pulling our leg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maomao
... in china/asia, you have experts/scientists leading the effort in fighting the virus...
As mentioned in other threads, the Middle East, Vietnam, Singapore and East Asia except Japan had SARS and MERS outbreaks. That's why Macau, Mainland China, Taiwan and Vietnam tackled the virus better than Japan and most western countries. Cruise ship and Tokyo were not good.
For Macau and HK, the pro Beijing copied the main prevention methods in mainland China. The protestors had been wearing masks before Covid to hide their identity from the police. Educated people wear masks when they have cough are more common than in the West. Pregnant mothers wear masks are understand by everyone.
For Australia and NZ, they always have strict measures at airports to protect health. Covid leads to more strict than before. But the outbreak in Victoria was not small.
The westerners living in China can tell you the disease is well under control in the country distrusted by most westerners. China used the strictest methods but the methods may not be or cannot be used in other countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris
We can also ask, "What makes Hong Kong people wear their masks in general and without rancor, even though many of them dislikes or distrusts their government, in particular, the Chief Executive?"
I think it's just that public health is generally something that there is more consensus over in a lot of Asian countries, that it isn't as politicized as it is in the USA. Not really about obediance or culture. Something to do with SARS in 2003, which wasn't all that long ago.
Similarly, Australia and NZ, which have a very different cultural background than say Korea, Japan, China, Taiwan, HK, etc., also responded decisively and implemented protective health measures without rancor or much controversy, again, compared with their Yank counterparts across the Pacific.
Last edited by Tomboy-; 09-17-2020 at 08:20 AM..
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