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I left because some were on here stirring things up whereas I was looking for a serious discussion, but i am bored, putting off work, so I am back. As to who are "true christians", it would be those whose actions would reflect the teaching of Jesus. I wouldn't call this "judging", but an opinion based on observation of one's words and deeds. So in other words, those that hate or belittle in the name of christianity may be hypocrites and christians in name only. It appears atheists are afraid of the christians imposing their will, and Christians are afraid of the atheists imposing their will, and we're all afraid of the Muslin terrorists and nuts like Kim Yung Il. I think what we are all really afraid of is not Christians, or Muslims or Atheists, but sociopaths and nut jobs in positions of power and/or with access to weapons.
I can respect why you left. This last post, however, focused the conversation perhaps so I'm glad you came back.
In case you haven't read the other threads, I was a Christian for almost 20 years. I left the church a few years ago. I tell you that so that the rest may make more sense, or so that you may better understand my history.
First, I heard many people talk about being "fruit inspectors". They claimed not to be judging whether or not a person was really saved, instead they were looking for the fruit of the spirit and how developed or underdeveloped the fruit was. A truly saved person, a real Christian, would have love, peace, long suffering, etc. This always bothered me. The same people who told me that I was saved by grace and not by works were also telling me to "inspect others fruit". I saw nonChristians (mainly a Muslim girl I knew and a Jewish boy among other nonbelievers) with the fruit of the spirit. I found the whole idea to be flawed, and I also found it to be judgmental. I had enough to worry about without concerning myself with others' fruit.
You said you "wouldn't call it judging". I really don't want to be argumentative. I just want to offer my perspective. Distinguishing some Christians as true and some as false is a judgment call since you can never know that person's heart. It is horrific and seems sacrilegious to think Hitler might actually be in heaven but if a person prescribes to the "once saved always saved" doctrine, he might be. This is one reason I do not subscribe to Christianity - "saving" sociopaths, damning innocents (i.e. children), and judging others.
Second, you said, "It appears atheists are afraid of the christians imposing their will, and Christians are afraid of the atheists imposing their will. . . " I love history, and I read a lot and watch lots of PBS and The History Channel. I am deeply saddened by the long history of violence, hatred, and malice done in the name of religion. I fear the religious zealot - be he/she Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Bahai'i, etc. I fear the (usually, historically) man who incites violence, hate, and malice using religion (like the Spanish explorers or Bin Laden). I'm saddened by the blindness toward knowledge or education that I see in many religious circles. I am disappointed that more Christians, in particular, don't care about the future of this planet, including the animals they are set in charge over. I'm frustrated by the blind following and never questioning of certain political parties and irrational hatred of others. I'm angered and wearied by the endless proselytizing that began thousands of years ago and that shows no signs of ending.
I like to read the forums to connect with others who feel the same and I post on them to explain, hopefully, how I feel and why. At the present time, I am thinking about what I believe. I read lots of books about faith and belief and doubt. I others' opinions about it. My thoughts and opinions about philosophy and religion are ever changing.
Lastly, another poster hit on it, a person's beliefs affect every aspect of their lives. I know religious people who pray about what clothes to wear in the morning. I know a woman who says that the ocean isn't polluted because god cleans it every night. She has no problem leaving trash laying around because she honestly believes god will clean it up. I personally treat people as I want to be treated myself and treat the planet like I treat my home.
You can argue about whether these people are making mature or childish, smart or foolish, or rational or irrational decisions. But the basis of their actions is their belief. That's why I care about beliefs. I recognize that a person's beliefs will likely influence every facet of their lives.
I'm an agnostic, but the discussion never comes up in daily life unless someone says something presumptuous....like when someone in my company said "whatever god you worship"......
....to which someone had to tell him, some people don't worship anything. It should be "whatever your beliefs are", and some people's beliefs don't involve praying to or expecting favors from supernatural entities.
So, to answer your question, we care about what we believe as much as you do. It only bothers you because you don't agree with what we believe.
I can respect why you left. This last post, however, focused the conversation perhaps so I'm glad you came back.
In case you haven't read the other threads, I was a Christian for almost 20 years. I left the church a few years ago. I tell you that so that the rest may make more sense, or so that you may better understand my history.
First, I heard many people talk about being "fruit inspectors". They claimed not to be judging whether or not a person was really saved, instead they were looking for the fruit of the spirit and how developed or underdeveloped the fruit was. A truly saved person, a real Christian, would have love, peace, long suffering, etc. This always bothered me. The same people who told me that I was saved by grace and not by works were also telling me to "inspect others fruit". I saw nonChristians (mainly a Muslim girl I knew and a Jewish boy among other nonbelievers) with the fruit of the spirit. I found the whole idea to be flawed, and I also found it to be judgmental. I had enough to worry about without concerning myself with others' fruit.
You said you "wouldn't call it judging". I really don't want to be argumentative. I just want to offer my perspective. Distinguishing some Christians as true and some as false is a judgment call since you can never know that person's heart. It is horrific and seems sacrilegious to think Hitler might actually be in heaven but if a person prescribes to the "once saved always saved" doctrine, he might be. This is one reason I do not subscribe to Christianity - "saving" sociopaths, damning innocents (i.e. children), and judging others.
Second, you said, "It appears atheists are afraid of the christians imposing their will, and Christians are afraid of the atheists imposing their will. . . " I love history, and I read a lot and watch lots of PBS and The History Channel. I am deeply saddened by the long history of violence, hatred, and malice done in the name of religion. I fear the religious zealot - be he/she Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Bahai'i, etc. I fear the (usually, historically) man who incites violence, hate, and malice using religion (like the Spanish explorers or Bin Laden). I'm saddened by the blindness toward knowledge or education that I see in many religious circles. I am disappointed that more Christians, in particular, don't care about the future of this planet, including the animals they are set in charge over. I'm frustrated by the blind following and never questioning of certain political parties and irrational hatred of others. I'm angered and wearied by the endless proselytizing that began thousands of years ago and that shows no signs of ending.
I like to read the forums to connect with others who feel the same and I post on them to explain, hopefully, how I feel and why. At the present time, I am thinking about what I believe. I read lots of books about faith and belief and doubt. I others' opinions about it. My thoughts and opinions about philosophy and religion are ever changing.
Lastly, another poster hit on it, a person's beliefs affect every aspect of their lives. I know religious people who pray about what clothes to wear in the morning. I know a woman who says that the ocean isn't polluted because god cleans it every night. She has no problem leaving trash laying around because she honestly believes god will clean it up. I personally treat people as I want to be treated myself and treat the planet like I treat my home.
You can argue about whether these people are making mature or childish, smart or foolish, or rational or irrational decisions. But the basis of their actions is their belief. That's why I care about beliefs. I recognize that a person's beliefs will likely influence every facet of their lives.
Wow, nice post - as to the "judging", I would call it more an opinion versus a judgment - i don't know what is in one's heart, only "God" knows that (hehe), but we all make judgment (opinions) every day about everything - don't think one could survive otherwise (i.e. Is it cold enough for a coat, or just a jacket? Coat - a judgment, not a fact.
Thanks for sharing you experience in the church - I have the same problems you had - the "fruit of the spirit", the evengelizing - one of the big things in the Baptist church is "freedom" - you're free from the bondage of sin" - well - for one thing, there is not much freedom in the church - you better act in accordance or else maybe you aren't really saved, or you are a backslider and need to repent. And the other thing, it's not true - before i was "saved" sin didn't bother me at all - not that I was a bad or meanspirited person, I wasn't, and I didn't worry about sin - now, it bothers me, I am "grieving the spirit". One other thing, I smoke - wow - you must not be spirit filled because a spirit filled christian would not engage in behavior that damages the "temple", being told to me by someone who weighs 400 pounds and eats quarterpounders and potatos like there's no tomorrow, BUT THEY DON'T SMOKE!! I have not been going to church much at all over the past 2 - 3 years, and in a way, I feel much relieved - like a load is lifted. It shouldn't be that way.
All that said, I am not saying I do not believe in the christian God - I certainly believe in God - cannot comprehend something coming from nothing, but the "church" is certainly wearing me out.
The other thing that I cannot stand, like you is the God directed me to buy a new car, or God told me to change jobs, or after much prayer, God revealed to me I should invest in gold - Bull! Now if someone says "God told me to quit my job and join the mission field in Africa to help the suffering children" that I can believe, but not God's advice on the Lexus.
You don't have to "comprehend something coming from nothing" to be an unbeliever. At least that wasn't in MY manual. It helps to be comfortable with the concept that we don't know the answer to every question.
You don't have to "comprehend something coming from nothing" to be an unbeliever. At least that wasn't in MY manual. It helps to be comfortable with the concept that we don't know the answer to every question.
Let me clarify, its my belief (opinion) that the particles which created the universe had to come from somewhere (a creator).
In my non-religious times, sometimes I think that "good" or God if you will, equates to organization, wherin evil or satan is the force of disorganization in the universe. The universe is organized (good, God), but things become disorganized too - explode, implode, get devoured by black holes etc (evil, Satan), and this theory applies even to humans - the presence of life, civilization, the family, cities, love, marriage,science, art, etc = organized/good/God, where in contrast war, murder, death, destruction, pollution, broken households, hate, etc = disorganization/evil/satan) Anyone else ever think from this perspective?
Uhhh... blue laws, mandatory church attendance, discrimination based on religion/church membership, mandatory prayer in schools, Atheists cannot hold public office (which is actually on the books in 7 states, NC being one of them).
There is a faction that could best be described as the American Taliban, that would love to begin down this path, if they could just get a foothold of power. Bush and Bush are clear indicator that it's possible. We had a president that said:, the spawn of this fool that started 2 wars because 'god told him to'.
So if we get a bit defensive, well there is a reason
Quote:
Originally Posted by cncracer
I am one of those Atheists who believe humanity can no longer allow the religions of the world to continue the fighting and bickering with each other over mythical gods. We live in a world where one insane religious individual can walk into a city with a nuclear bomb set it off and kill millions. We also live in a world where nuclear material is available, and we have the nuts in the major religions trying to fight one religious war after another. If we look at history of the christian faith alone we see it has now killed 200,000,000 people. They are the main killers, but the others are working hard to catch up, and as a member of humanity I say it is time to shut them all down. It is time for them to grow up and face the real truth not a make believe book of myths. Reality is reality and their myths are no better than the ancient mythical gods of our human past. In truth we can not afford to let the mythical gods kill off the planet over something as stupid as religion.
These, as well as other posts in this thread, are beautifully written/spoken.
This thread and the posts in it are perfect examples of how wars are started. I accept the fact that religion is based on a god that I do not believe in. However, religion cannot accept the fact that my belief is; "What we believe is not important. How we treat each other, is". We all NEED the same things. Everything else is just material.
We atheist/agnostics are much more accepting, understanding and forgiving than that of "the spoken word". Go figure.
I've never been "pushed" by an atheist/agnostic. Always it's been, by a religious group.
And you ask why we care about our beliefs so much. Hmm.
Nazis, Commies, Japanese c. 1930s/40s. Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, et al. You need to read up on your History.
Greece, Roman, American Civil, Spainish American, WW1, WW2 Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afgan are not religious wars. More died in those than died in the last 10,000 years.
It ain't about religion despite what you want to believe. Try the concepts of power, money, empire and just being evil. That is what causes war.
I think you need to go read a history not prejudiced by your view of god, or your religion.
1- Hitler was Catholic, and his infrastructure was based on an order of the Catholic church. His ties with the Vatican were so strong as to have many still feeling he had his own pope, or worst owned the pope. The web is full of it, as are any none religious based (public) libraries. You need to get out of you box and read real history not propaganda.
2- Stalin was Atheist, but his goal was not related to his lack of faith, or on his education in a catholic seminary prior to his rise to power. It was pure power and economics. His killing also never came close to the 200,000,000 killed as a direct result of christianity.
3- Again Pol Pot who was educated in a French Catholic school was not fighting to impose his view of religion, but rather his view of society. Strangely enough he killed the educated which is the area where most Atheists come from.
4- Mao was Atheist, raised as a Buddhist but from my readings the Buddhist connection was based on respect of his mother. His push to power was again based on economics, not his negative religious views, and his death toll even when added with the other atrocities caused by the economic pushes by atheist don’t come close to the Christian death toll.
As for you list of wars, I think you would do well to review the list and reread your history. I do agree it is power, money, empire building, as well as greed, but I also see it all coming out of religions with the crown jewel of killers being the christian faith.
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