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When ya don't shout down a clown, the clown thinks he's winning.
I am more concerned about that appearance of "winning" attracting future generations of clowns or making people who are somewhat ambivalent think voting for clowns isn't bad. I know it is highly unlikely that the clown will listen to voices from outside the clown's head; it isn't really the clown I want to hear me when I get into one of those shouting matches (which I generally avoid).
When ya don't shout down a clown, the clown thinks he's winning.
yeah. The clown thinks he won. lmao, I have walked away from many a clown. mostly due to the lady liberals that would have me in more trouble with poo poo for clowning the clown. But I have no idea why the people around that clown follow that clown. I mean people "look up to clowns".
But another problem I have, is when a clown is jumping around seeking his nose and then some in our ranks do the exact same thing. I am watching our side make up stuff to support a cause. Making up fairytales to fight other fairytales really confuses me to tell ya truth.
example. child abuse. If a priest does it, he dead. but lady liberal is against that. Child abuse has nothing to do with religion. example number 2, Stealing money. well, stealing in religion should be treated exactly the same way as with CEO's, oh wait it is, nothing is done, forget that taught,
I think I am more with ya then agin ya. I differ at blaming religion for people's actions. I differ in that I am blaming stupid people following clowns. even when they realize they were and then stopped. look in the mirror first.
I am more concerned about that appearance of "winning" attracting future generations of clowns or making people who are somewhat ambivalent think voting for clowns isn't bad. I know it is highly unlikely that the clown will listen to voices from outside the clown's head; it isn't really the clown I want to hear me when I get into one of those shouting matches (which I generally avoid).
when I shout down a clown, you see two clowns shouting at each other.
when I shout down a clown, you see two clowns shouting at each other.
Which is exactly why I said I generally avoid doing it. When I do debate a clown, it is because there is at least one person involved in the discussion that really does seem undecided. Then I don't try to "win"; I just make sure the undecided person hears that the clown's POV is contested and that both sides believe the facts support them and that the undecided person would be better served to look into it and make their own decision rather than letting someone else bully them into accepting a POV. The clown will generally not agree that is a good idea and continue shouting. In those cases, I am hopeful that people don't see two clowns shouting, but they might.
Which is exactly why I said I generally avoid doing it. When I do debate a clown, it is because there is at least one person involved in the discussion that really does seem undecided. Then I don't try to "win"; I just make sure the undecided person hears that the clown's POV is contested and that both sides believe the facts support them and that the undecided person would be better served to look into it and make their own decision rather than letting someone else bully them into accepting a POV. The clown will generally not agree that is a good idea and continue shouting. In those cases, I am hopeful that people don't see two clowns shouting, but they might.
This is why I make it a point NOT to engage fundies (on either side) once I am aware that they are fundies.
But that's the whole point. While it is true that Europe is generally going unreligious, the sheer silence about it leaves religion with a huge amount of undebunked credit it can call on any time it wants to. We are frankly lazy apart from some who realize what a huge scam is going on and want to do something about it.
The USA is where it's happening. The lazy silence is there too, but the sheer absence of a state church has allowed the proliferation of religious fundies and nuts and, because there was no state interference in religions, the lunatics often run the asylums.
The rot stopped at Dover when I/D was debunked as science or as credible. That didn't mean that pushback was won. It was perhaps the end of the beginning, as Churchill put it. The US and Europe can't yet imagine an irreligious society, even though they live in one. They have been fooled into thinking it is religious. It isn't. It is a secular society with a humanist worldview. Religion feeds off it like a bloated leech, because we as a society have been brainwashed into thinking that it's good for us.
In America it is so bloated it can build megachurches, Creation museums, fake Arks and purchase learjets. The USA is waking up to the scam - which is ok. But it is also waking up to the lack of credibility the claims of religion have.
This is done, not by clowns bawling at one another as Arach puts it, but by discussion of the claims. If they are put fairly and discussed reasonably, then accusations of clownish bawling and being fundies will be seen as biased and wrongheaded by the silent browsers and lurkers out there. They are the audience and they also serve who only stand and lurk.
Because they also fill in Pew surveys and vote. And, when, in Random factors' good time, the irreligious voters step forward for the liberation of the Old Glory from the Christian nation that has been attempting to hoist its flag over the stars and stripes from McArthy to the day of prayer law passing congress, if and when that happens and a President can be elected without having to display Christian credentials, then Europe will take notice. Since we slavishly follow America's lead, we might as well use it to atheism's benefit
So this is important, and it matters and that's why we engage and debate fundies on both sides and from the centre, where they seem to be labouring under the delusion that if you are neither an atheist or a believer in Biblegod, that makes one 'reasonable' by definition.
In fact one can be as "Fundy" (closed -minded and illogical)about sortagod as about any other kindagod.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-11-2016 at 06:58 AM..
Being from Scandinavia - Norway, Sweden and Denmark are among the most secular western nations in the world. We have large number of Atheists/Agnostics with religious people being the minority. However, our holidays and culture are still Christian. Most of our national holidays are religious Christian with few secular ones'.
Despite us having very large nonbelievers population, we are never against the religious people. Sweden also has separation of church and state.
Our public schools still teaches religion, and on some high holidays many schools take students to churches. On St. Lucia's Day, students sing also about Jesus Christ. Many schools also teaches bible lessons after class if students are interested.
From what I've seen and read, it seems like Atheists in the U.S. are very Anti-religion. They try to take away all religious things in America, despite the U.S. having 80% Christians and only 1.6% Atheists/Agnostics. Yes, around 16% are Non-religious but that does not mean they don't believe in God, they are just not members of any religious places. So America could be considered a religious nation.
Why not leave religious people alone and let them keep or make religion in the U.S. as much as possible.... ignore and laugh at them (My tips).
Yes, I understand it could be annoying when religious people get mad and angry at nonbelievers, but if you guys ignore them then they wouldn't say anything hopefully. In Scandinavia I never heard any fight between religious and non-religious people at all, maybe because us non-believers don't care what they do in our country, because we like Christian holidays and culture.
The answer is easy. Southern fundamentalists who are fanatically right wing and have come to dominate the Republican party.
I enjoy Christmas myself, although I don't attach any religious significance to it.
Haven't read the whole thread so forgive if the point has been made:
But American atheists NEED to be more vocal and militant because their country is the last great bastion of Christian fundamentalism and one of their two political parties espouses some scary Christian principles.
The last thing the world needs is a face-off between Christian and Muslim fundamentalists.
Intelligent, articulate, sensible atheists speak not only for themselves but for liberal believers of many persuasions - including the vast majority of Christians.
I understand and appreciate the mod's need to stickhandle political stuff elsewhere so I won't belabour the point but Christian fundamentalism must be stopped. I believe the next election in the US is pivotal regarding whether or not Christian fundamentalism withers into flaccid impotence within two generations, or three.
I'm hoping for two, though I won't here in this particular collection of molecules to find out.
Yes. Trouts makes an important point. While atheism is 'in our daily lives' like not unrolling the prayer mat five times a day is in our daily lives, the prodnose of organized religion makes us aware of how unwelcome and interfering it can be.
Theists, like Troutdude here also see the problem with organized religion and the unwelcome influence it can have and while he would be on the same page as Mystic, Gldnrule, Bulmabriefs and Arach in considering there is "Something More" than just random interaction of particles, he is on the same page as militant atheism in wanting to roll religion right off the page of society, education and politics.
That done, disagreement about whether there is a sortagod or not is truly academic and nothing we would need to campaign about. Thus those "Agnostics" with a beef about the stridency of atheism have an agenda for which Something-moregod is a cover. They often let the dustsheet slip when they wave the religious flag, cheering the rise of Christianity in China for instance. They can't help themselves - their First cause -sortagod is the god of the Bible in their minds, even if they don't realize it.
It is the atheists who are truly 'agnostic' because they say they don't know. I watched a debate between Matt Dillahunty and some fathead of an apologist who, while he showed up his dishonesty- for -Jesus in tapdancing around Matt's favourite argument (Slavery in the Bible) had begun his presentation by sneering at the atheists who "Don't know" how the universe began. It is the correct and logical position and pretending to Know is the illogical.
Religion - or rather the religious - are safe in a humanist society. They may paint hellfire -scare pictures of atheist roost -rulers herding Christians into concentration camps (projection of what they would do if they had the power ) but in fact all religions would be free to practice their religious delusions - but would not be free to push it in the workplace, education or politics. No muslim controlled schools. No prayers before council -meetings. No exemption from law because of religion. And absolutely no censoring of science education where it conflicts with someone's religious beliefs.
If American atheists are more irritatingly doctrinaire than their European counterparts - the answer is easy, in often religious America - they face more of an uphill battle.
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) but in fact all religions would be free to practice their religious delusions - but would not be free to push it in the workplace, education or politics. No muslim controlled schools. No prayers before council -meetings. No exemption from law because of religion. And absolutely no censoring of science education where it conflicts with someone's religious beliefs.
