Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
WhoMe,
It's very simple... God is defined in dictionaries in two ways: as Creator or as one that is worshipped.
Obviously, not all self-proclaimed Atheists worship Atheism, just like not all self-proclaimed Christians worship Christ. Still, some do. To realize the fact that some self-proclaimed Atheists worship Atheism - just look at this subforum and at the number of posts.
Chango,
Atheism is not the harder path - because it is just religion turned inside out. It's simply another illusional belief system dictating beliefs - so that you don't have to actually come to terms with the fact that we will never know some things.
WhoMe,
It's very simple... God is defined in dictionaries in two ways: as Creator or as one that is worshipped.
Obviously, not all self-proclaimed Atheists worship Atheism, just like not all self-proclaimed Christians worship Christ. Still, some do. To realize the fact that some self-proclaimed Atheists worship Atheism - just look at this subforum and at the number of posts.
Chango,
Atheism is not the harder path - because it is just religion turned inside out. It's simply another illusional belief system dictating beliefs - so that you don't have to actually come to terms with the fact that we will never know some things.
Yes, some things will never be known...but atheists , unlike religious people, don't make things up because they don't know something..
I agree atheism isn't the harder path if you are talking about using logic and reason...those simplify life.
All the silly beliefs and icons, beads, incense, man-made rules, rites, hand signs, mythical stories, arguing among sects, religious political in-fighting, wars, the bloody history of religion, etc. really weigh people down...and it's all so silly and unnecessary........
Yes, "creator" and a "god" are two different things whether people use them interchangeably or not.
There could be a creator of the universe who isn't a god.
There could be a 'god" who didn't do a damn thing.
But there is no proof of either.
AND defending/explaining atheism is NOT worshipping atheism.... I feel no desperate weak need to worship anything....
I was reading 9/11 stories for whatever reason, I guess cause today is Veteran's Day, and came across a story about a guy who called his father shortly before perishing in one of the towers, and the father was describing how grateful he was that he had that final moment with his son. And it really struck me that that truly was their final moment, there is no after-life where you reunite with your loved ones. That's it, that's the last time he'll ever hear from his son again, and now he only has memories to live by.
It really depressed me thinking about it, and about it happening to me, and I can see how people so easily use religion as a coping mechanism for these types of events, because facing the cold indifference of reality can be tough.
In a lot of ways, being born any other animal than a human is better because you lack even the ability to comprehend and understand your insignificance, and you don't have the ego that tries to tell you otherwise.
I haven't read the other comments but I wanted to say that I completely get where you're coming from. I've been struggling with my deconversion after many years of being a Christian and the only thing that has soothed this confused soul recently is this song:
Ok, I may be a little biased because I love Papa Roach but this seemed like a conversation between me and gawd recently and once again, without fail, he didn't produce himself as asked. Do people really believe that their damn stupid ass prayers are going anywhere but up their own asses? I've never seen an answered prayer, had lots of really weird coincidences happen but answered prayer.....nah....never. Maybe I should have wrote down a lot of stuff but over the years I shared too much in my personal diaries and over time I have destroyed both of them because the first one sounded stupid and naive, and the second.....well.....the same thing. I shredded all of it, including a novel I had started writing. All too close to home. I can understand why fiction is so popular.....non-fiction is too damn real for most people. I mean if we all were really honest about it, we all have stories whether they're picture perfect or horrific, and everyone in the entire world has thought about publishing their memoirs. Am I wrong? EVERY ****ING BODY. In my heart of hearts, the depths of my doubting heart and mind I feel that this is not it.
I know, it does not make any sense that I would believe in an afterlife after becoming an atheist. But I do. Maybe it's years of brainwashing that I have yet to deal with or it a gut instinct that I'm really feeling, I haven't figured it out yet but I still believe that this is not it. It can't be, it just can't be. So much unfinished business, hopes, dreams and promises that this isn't it or can we just trust our feelings? This may sound nuts but I put way more stock in gut feelings than I do anything else. They're usually right. There is definitely something to say for women's intuition and man's basic instincts....we're both creatures of inbred habit or genetic or wtf but make no mistake, neither one of us has a clue about the other. Sometimes I think that maybe gay people have it right, they're just in the minority. When you think about it, everything in this whole ****ing life seems like some kind of test.
Can't help you you're attracted to, I was talking to a lifelong guy friend of mine tonight and the subject of his big dick came up. Ok.....back up.....and don't get the wrong idea. We've known each other since I was 7 and he was 10. He's 52, I'm 49. This right here puts an end to the debate of whether a hetereosexual male and a heterosexual female can be friends and nothing but friends for life. It can happen, and it has. Psycho and I have never had sex, but we've been plutonic boy/girl friends for 42 years and nothing has ever happened except for some awkward drunken kissing and Psycho being on some serious pills about 18 years ago.....but that's another story.
My point is that watching Mythbusters is quite educational and dispels a whollatta things that have been taught to all of us and we just accepted as old wive's tales or whatever and never questioned it. Honestly, you must know already that us atheists, whether life-long or newly de-converted, I've had to release many, many, many so-called realities and started researching every little questionable thing that came to mind. I was never one for the studies but since the internet came along (or when I found it) I've become quite the networm.
Back in 1994 I think it was, I remember Arsenio Hall first mentioning the internet but it wasn't called that then.........seems like I remember him saying something about the "information highway" and how he spent a couple hours a day on the "world wide web". Ha does that date me. So some people had vision and forethought about a lot of things that the rest of us were skeptical about at first....the proof really is in the pudding and what they say is true I think....anyone that goes from deep religion into atheism will most surely be an atheist from that time forward until death but if they are proven wrong by way of proof that other people witness, then us de-converted athiests will be the first at the chopping block after that dang rapture!!
Whew, my mind really goes off into a thousand different directions sometimes but my point is that I agreed with your OP and you put forth some very valid questions. Ones that I won't pretend to have the answers to but gut works for me.
But it is an interesting concept never the less...whether you believe it is entirely personal, as is (I believe) believing in "God"...I agree that most people IN the world are sadly "uncaring of the plight of humanity", but for some I guess just keeping themselves above water is all that they know, or want to.
You know what, you win the prize for jackass response of the day. Ever heard of poverty *******? Yes, keeping one's head above water is an everyday struggle for some, it never gets easier. Excuse the hell out of us who need every single dime and can't afford to help the "other" poor that you have deemed worthy. Take away the income of some, and they're right there with us "unmentionables" because every single American is so far in debt.....just two paychecks away from foreclosure. Suicide you say? Why yes, I think I will!!! No wait, I can't.......I got people depending on me. Family, friends, associates, clients, church, schools, lions and tigers and bears oh my!!!
Yeah I'm a little upset at your callous response, you can tell that you were born with a silver spoon in that big fat mouth. I'm certainly not a bible thumper anymore but there is something in that loony tunes of a book that stuck with me........"there will always be the poor among you". Just one time in my lifetime I want to see that rich man go through the eye of that needle.......everything is easier than that. I want to see someone so convicted that they give all their money away and live like the rest of the 98% of us....poor. Unlike the parable of the rich man, I want to see real results. No one is that convicted anymore, except for maybe the Taliban who hate us. Honestly, it ain't too much to ask.
So you see oh most self-righteous one, your argument came out of left field and has no bearing whatsoever on the topic at hand. Which is.........the most elegant of insults right back atcha.
I haven't read the other comments but I wanted to say that I completely get where you're coming from. I've been struggling with my deconversion after many years of being a Christian and the only thing that has soothed this confused soul recently is this song:
Ok, I may be a little biased because I love Papa Roach but this seemed like a conversation between me and gawd recently and once again, without fail, he didn't produce himself as asked. Do people really believe that their damn stupid ass prayers are going anywhere but up their own asses? I've never seen an answered prayer, had lots of really weird coincidences happen but answered prayer.....nah....never. Maybe I should have wrote down a lot of stuff but over the years I shared too much in my personal diaries and over time I have destroyed both of them because the first one sounded stupid and naive, and the second.....well.....the same thing. I shredded all of it, including a novel I had started writing. All too close to home. I can understand why fiction is so popular.....non-fiction is too damn real for most people. I mean if we all were really honest about it, we all have stories whether they're picture perfect or horrific, and everyone in the entire world has thought about publishing their memoirs. Am I wrong? EVERY ****ING BODY. In my heart of hearts, the depths of my doubting heart and mind I feel that this is not it.
I know, it does not make any sense that I would believe in an afterlife after becoming an atheist. But I do. Maybe it's years of brainwashing that I have yet to deal with or it a gut instinct that I'm really feeling, I haven't figured it out yet but I still believe that this is not it. It can't be, it just can't be. So much unfinished business, hopes, dreams and promises that this isn't it or can we just trust our feelings? This may sound nuts but I put way more stock in gut feelings than I do anything else. They're usually right. There is definitely something to say for women's intuition and man's basic instincts....we're both creatures of inbred habit or genetic or wtf but make no mistake, neither one of us has a clue about the other. Sometimes I think that maybe gay people have it right, they're just in the minority. When you think about it, everything in this whole ****ing life seems like some kind of test.
Can't help you you're attracted to, I was talking to a lifelong guy friend of mine tonight and the subject of his big dick came up. Ok.....back up.....and don't get the wrong idea. We've known each other since I was 7 and he was 10. He's 52, I'm 49. This right here puts an end to the debate of whether a hetereosexual male and a heterosexual female can be friends and nothing but friends for life. It can happen, and it has. Psycho and I have never had sex, but we've been plutonic boy/girl friends for 42 years and nothing has ever happened except for some awkward drunken kissing and Psycho being on some serious pills about 18 years ago.....but that's another story.
My point is that watching Mythbusters is quite educational and dispels a whollatta things that have been taught to all of us and we just accepted as old wive's tales or whatever and never questioned it. Honestly, you must know already that us atheists, whether life-long or newly de-converted, I've had to release many, many, many so-called realities and started researching every little questionable thing that came to mind. I was never one for the studies but since the internet came along (or when I found it) I've become quite the networm.
Back in 1994 I think it was, I remember Arsenio Hall first mentioning the internet but it wasn't called that then.........seems like I remember him saying something about the "information highway" and how he spent a couple hours a day on the "world wide web". Ha does that date me. So some people had vision and forethought about a lot of things that the rest of us were skeptical about at first....the proof really is in the pudding and what they say is true I think....anyone that goes from deep religion into atheism will most surely be an atheist from that time forward until death but if they are proven wrong by way of proof that other people witness, then us de-converted athiests will be the first at the chopping block after that dang rapture!!
Whew, my mind really goes off into a thousand different directions sometimes but my point is that I agreed with your OP and you put forth some very valid questions. Ones that I won't pretend to have the answers to but gut works for me.
Good post but let's rethink :"I know, it does not make any sense that I would believe in an afterlife after becoming an atheist"
YES, you are now free to think anything you like!!!
Being an atheist only means ONE thing, you do not believe in a god or gods.
NO one, I repeat, NO one KNOWS what happens after death.
And we atheists and non-religious are free to believe anything we want . Unlike christians we don't need someone else to tell us what to believe......and atheists have just as much proof of what happens after death as christians do.... 0
It takes a strong mind to rely on your own strength during tough times instead of retreating into fantasy and convincing yourself it's real. Atheism/Agnosticism really is the hard path to take through life.
But it's like they always say, nothing worthwhile is ever easy!
When I was a Christian, verses like "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding" sounded noble and smart because it was drummed into me from an early age that I was weak and foolish and unable to care for myself. That is why I needed saving. Now I realize that I am not weak and foolish, I am simply human. I make mistakes and I figure it out as I go, but everyone does that, including Christians. The difference with Christians is that they layer things on top of their humanity so they can deny it -- concepts like the lusts of the flesh, the sin nature, the influence of a personal devil, are stand ins for the human condition and sets you up at war with yourself.
For this reason I don't think of unbelief as "the hard path". Life itself is hard, for anyone. The path of atheism is hard only in two limited senses.
First, as an unbeliever, you never avoid unpleasant realities but face them head-on at once, but this is only a short term difficulty because over the long term, dealing in reality is always less taxing. You end up at peace with and/or adapted to and/or accepting of things as they are rather than some impossible ideal of things as they "should" be instead of always struggling to reconcile god's promises with your reality and accepting direct or indirect blame for god not coming through for you. One of the unpleasant realities you must deal with is your own mortality, and avoiding that issue with superficially comforting myths and platitudes might seem easier, but like a lot of things in life, when you actually face it head on, it's not that bad. As WC Fields once said, sometimes you have to take the bull by the tail and look squarely at the situation ;-)
Secondly, unbelief is not the majority consensus in much of the world and you are sometimes excluded, discriminated against, misunderstood, painted with various bizarre caricatures, and pressured to conform. This is the main sense in which you have to stand on your own two feet. Many people have deeply embedded within themselves the idea that they must test all their ideas and beliefs against some majority consensus opinion. It's also particularly hard to disappoint or anger parents, even for adult children.
In an ideal world, one in which everyone lived and let live, unbelief would be overall a simpler and easier path in life; it's artificially hard only if you allow people to make it so.
I say this with the full realization that I have some real luxuries in this department. My parents are long gone and aren't around to be confused or worried about my choices. My two surviving brothers have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy and don't live close and one of them is all but in my camp anyway. My wife, children and stepchildren are all unbelievers. Neither my wife nor myself have any extended family to speak of. I live in a very progressive, liberal town. It's easy in my profession to fly below the radar regarding personal beliefs and those professionally closest to me are closeted unbelievers. I'm going on 56 years old, a time in life where people are less and less nosy about such things anyway. I fully understand how hard it is for someone much younger, still finding their place in the world, trying to respect their parents and elders, etc., and quite possibly facing losing the only support system they've ever known -- their church. I am not minimizing how hard a place that is to be, or all the other ways that intellectual and existential honesty can be punished. But I am here to testify that in and of itself, there's nothing inherently "harder" about this path. It's mostly the ideas in between your ears and other people's ears that make it seem that way.
When I was a Christian, verses like "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding" sounded noble and smart because it was drummed into me from an early age that I was weak and foolish and unable to care for myself. That is why I needed saving. Now I realize that I am not weak and foolish, I am simply human. I make mistakes and I figure it out as I go, but everyone does that, including Christians. The difference with Christians is that they layer things on top of their humanity so they can deny it -- concepts like the lusts of the flesh, the sin nature, the influence of a personal devil, are stand ins for the human condition and sets you up at war with yourself.
For this reason I don't think of unbelief as "the hard path". Life itself is hard, for anyone. The path of atheism is hard only in two limited senses.
First, as an unbeliever, you never avoid unpleasant realities but face them head-on at once, but this is only a short term difficulty because over the long term, dealing in reality is always less taxing. You end up at peace with and/or adapted to and/or accepting of things as they are rather than some impossible ideal of things as they "should" be instead of always struggling to reconcile god's promises with your reality and accepting direct or indirect blame for god not coming through for you. One of the unpleasant realities you must deal with is your own mortality, and avoiding that issue with superficially comforting myths and platitudes might seem easier, but like a lot of things in life, when you actually face it head on, it's not that bad. As WC Fields once said, sometimes you have to take the bull by the tail and look squarely at the situation ;-)
Secondly, unbelief is not the majority consensus in much of the world and you are sometimes excluded, discriminated against, misunderstood, painted with various bizarre caricatures, and pressured to conform. This is the main sense in which you have to stand on your own two feet. Many people have deeply embedded within themselves the idea that they must test all their ideas and beliefs against some majority consensus opinion. It's also particularly hard to disappoint or anger parents, even for adult children.
In an ideal world, one in which everyone lived and let live, unbelief would be overall a simpler and easier path in life; it's artificially hard only if you allow people to make it so.
I say this with the full realization that I have some real luxuries in this department. My parents are long gone and aren't around to be confused or worried about my choices. My two surviving brothers have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy and don't live close and one of them is all but in my camp anyway. My wife, children and stepchildren are all unbelievers. Neither my wife nor myself have any extended family to speak of. I live in a very progressive, liberal town. It's easy in my profession to fly below the radar regarding personal beliefs and those professionally closest to me are closeted unbelievers. I'm going on 56 years old, a time in life where people are less and less nosy about such things anyway. I fully understand how hard it is for someone much younger, still finding their place in the world, trying to respect their parents and elders, etc., and quite possibly facing losing the only support system they've ever known -- their church. I am not minimizing how hard a place that is to be, or all the other ways that intellectual and existential honesty can be punished. But I am here to testify that in and of itself, there's nothing inherently "harder" about this path. It's mostly the ideas in between your ears and other people's ears that make it seem that way.
Your CHILDREN are unbelievers? Have you made it acceptable to them to believe?
When I was a Christian, verses like "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding" sounded noble and smart because it was drummed into me from an early age that I was weak and foolish and unable to care for myself. That is why I needed saving. Now I realize that I am not weak and foolish, I am simply human. I make mistakes and I figure it out as I go, but everyone does that, including Christians. The difference with Christians is that they layer things on top of their humanity so they can deny it -- concepts like the lusts of the flesh, the sin nature, the influence of a personal devil, are stand ins for the human condition and sets you up at war with yourself.
For this reason I don't think of unbelief as "the hard path". Life itself is hard, for anyone. The path of atheism is hard only in two limited senses.
First, as an unbeliever, you never avoid unpleasant realities but face them head-on at once, but this is only a short term difficulty because over the long term, dealing in reality is always less taxing. You end up at peace with and/or adapted to and/or accepting of things as they are rather than some impossible ideal of things as they "should" be instead of always struggling to reconcile god's promises with your reality and accepting direct or indirect blame for god not coming through for you. One of the unpleasant realities you must deal with is your own mortality, and avoiding that issue with superficially comforting myths and platitudes might seem easier, but like a lot of things in life, when you actually face it head on, it's not that bad. As WC Fields once said, sometimes you have to take the bull by the tail and look squarely at the situation ;-)
Secondly, unbelief is not the majority consensus in much of the world and you are sometimes excluded, discriminated against, misunderstood, painted with various bizarre caricatures, and pressured to conform. This is the main sense in which you have to stand on your own two feet. Many people have deeply embedded within themselves the idea that they must test all their ideas and beliefs against some majority consensus opinion. It's also particularly hard to disappoint or anger parents, even for adult children.
In an ideal world, one in which everyone lived and let live, unbelief would be overall a simpler and easier path in life; it's artificially hard only if you allow people to make it so.
I say this with the full realization that I have some real luxuries in this department. My parents are long gone and aren't around to be confused or worried about my choices. My two surviving brothers have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy and don't live close and one of them is all but in my camp anyway. My wife, children and stepchildren are all unbelievers. Neither my wife nor myself have any extended family to speak of. I live in a very progressive, liberal town. It's easy in my profession to fly below the radar regarding personal beliefs and those professionally closest to me are closeted unbelievers. I'm going on 56 years old, a time in life where people are less and less nosy about such things anyway. I fully understand how hard it is for someone much younger, still finding their place in the world, trying to respect their parents and elders, etc., and quite possibly facing losing the only support system they've ever known -- their church. I am not minimizing how hard a place that is to be, or all the other ways that intellectual and existential honesty can be punished. But I am here to testify that in and of itself, there's nothing inherently "harder" about this path. It's mostly the ideas in between your ears and other people's ears that make it seem that way.
Your CHILDREN are unbelievers? Have you made it acceptable to them to believe?
Charles Sands
37129
Is it acceptable to you to have your children not believe ?
You surely must've read the post you quoted ...did the writer sound like someone who would force his beliefs on anyone???????????
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Ever heard of poverty *******? Yes, keeping one's head above water is an everyday struggle for some, it never gets easier. Excuse the hell out of us who need every single dime and can't afford to help the "other" poor that you have deemed worthy. Take away the income of some, and they're right there with us "unmentionables" because every single American is so far in debt.....just two paychecks away from foreclosure. Suicide you say? Why yes, I think I will!!! No wait, I can't.......I got people depending on me. Family, friends, associates, clients, church, schools, lions and tigers and bears oh my!!! 
