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This is actually true; however, what exactly is "liberal"? Are we really and truly liberal?
I think you may be confusing "liberal" with "liberated" as in "free". I believe transponder was referring to liberal thought patterns vs conservative. Liberal as in more open to things as they are rather than things as they "should" or "ought" or "must" be (less idealistic and preconceived) and also more open to ideas on their merits rather than based on what is accepted / approved / allowed. Less authoritarian.
Life isn't a gift. It's the result of sexual intercourse, plain and simple.
Yes, at best my life is a gift from my parents, but even that is a stretch. Because by definition gifts are personal, and the most a prospective parent can do is decide to have a child, and accept the lottery of whatever pops out of the other end of the process. That is rather impersonal, alas.
(In my case, my father was 41 and my mother 39 when I was conceived, 10 years after the last of their first three children ... in other words they thought they were done. Loved me anyway, but in my case there wasn't even general intentionality in my conception).
But of course what a theist means by this is that god plans each person's existence and "gifts" them with it. An unfortunate position to take, because then you have to explain how god "gifts" a crack baby or a horribly deformed child or why he gifts unfit parents with children.
Yes, at best my life is a gift from my parents, but even that is a stretch. Because by definition gifts are personal, and the most a prospective parent can do is decide to have a child, and accept the lottery of whatever pops out of the other end of the process. That is rather impersonal, alas.
(In my case, my father was 41 and my mother 39 when I was conceived, 10 years after the last of their first three children ... in other words they thought they were done. Loved me anyway, but in my case there wasn't even general intentionality in my conception).
But of course what a theist means by this is that god plans each person's existence and "gifts" them with it. An unfortunate position to take, because then you have to explain how god "gifts" a crack baby or a horribly deformed child or why he gifts unfit parents with children.
And indeed, for most parents, a baby is a gift to themselves...not to the baby.
Ask any parent why s/he had a child and you'll hear, "Because I wanted someone to love." "I wanted someone I could teach." "I remember the good times I had as a child, playing ball, playing with dolls...I want to continue that feeling." "Because when I see a child smile, it makes me smile. I feel happy." "Because I always saw myself having a large family." "My mom is dying. I want to give her what she wants most: a grandchild." "I would hate to see the family name and our long, beautiful history die out." "I want to pass along all the old family stories." "I wanted to feel complete...something was missing." I I I me me me.
(And from the Christian perspective: God created man because HE was all alone and HE wanted man to exist, and HE wants people to "choose" a specific ultimate path, and HE wants company in heaven...wouldn't this all be a gift for *God* or am I crazy? Man doesn't get his ultimate "gift" unless *he gives something to God first*, what the hell kind of gift-giving is that? On my son's birthday I don't say "Happy birthday, my son! Now as soon as you give ME omething, you can have your cake. Well, provided I approve of what you give me.")
Back to the more pragmatic and provable, though: We have children to make ourselves happy, not to make an as yet unconceived child that doesn't exist and therefore couldn't yet possibly need or want anything, happy.
We do it to make OURSELVES happy.
And when our children are happy were glad because WE did something right and seeing our child happy makes US FEEL good.
Having a baby is a gift to the parents only, nobody else including the baby which has never asked for this "gift". Unless the human population has died out except for you and one fertile person of the opposite sex, getting pregnant is never a totally selfless act. (Or unless you're an unpaid surrogate doing it for someone you love.)
But how is creating something that, despite your best intentions, will definitely feel plenty of pain of all kinds and ultimately have to die, a "gift" to that being? Indeed, even if one has religious belief: how could that same be a "gift" from God? If it was all nominally pleasant, or at least not occasionally excruciatingly painful (ultimate "reward" on the horizon for pulling the right levers or not) THEN I might be able to see it as a gift.
I'm not trying to be a B-word, I have children myself, but I'm honest and can see the selfishness inherent in it and I see life as a physical thing...where we go from there with it is really up to us. But gift...no.
I think you may be confusing "liberal" with "liberated" as in "free". I believe transponder was referring to liberal thought patterns vs conservative. Liberal as in more open to things as they are rather than things as they "should" or "ought" or "must" be (less idealistic and preconceived) and also more open to ideas on their merits rather than based on what is accepted / approved / allowed. Less authoritarian.
Correct and I was using a label for social and ethical thought, as opposed to a lot of beliefs in stopping people doing a lot of 'Sinful' things, like taking a drink or watching sport on a Sunday.
So OP Clintine and GoCardinals, are we clearer in understanding that right and wrong is based on personal preferences and group interests (and understanding of the instinct to procreate, protect our babies, fight for our family and our tribe would make us realize how evolved survival instinct is causing half our problems) but complex society means that we had to learn to co -exist with others, question mark. And like art, writing, music and indeed religion, we all came up with similar ways of doing it, but surprisingly similar in many ways.
Morality is no more absolute and right in this society and wrong in all the others than English is right and all the other languages wrong.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-29-2016 at 04:55 AM..
Life isn't a gift. It's the result of sexual intercourse, plain and simple.
On the other hand, it is a bit of a lottery win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
....
But of course what a theist means by this is that god plans each person's existence and "gifts" them with it. An unfortunate position to take, because then you have to explain how god "gifts" a crack baby or a horribly deformed child or why he gifts unfit parents with children.
Blame it on Satan or Adam or just men, for being sinful.
Blame it on Satan or Adam or just men, for being sinful.
I know that believers blame Satan or humanity for human suffering but they can't have it both ways. If life is an individual gift to each person then it is the equivalent of gifting someone with a big steaming turd in many cases ... it is not the child's fault its mother is addicted to crack and if you are going to suggest that a crack baby is anything but the result of sex then you have to explain why god is gifting some people with stable intact financially viable nuclear families and all the advantages that go with it, and gifting others with poverty and want before they even have a chance to sin so as to have it coming to them.
why god is gifting some people with stable intact financially viable nuclear families and all the advantages that go with it, and gifting others with poverty and want before they even have a chance to sin so as to have it coming to them.
It was these sorts of questions which always started trouble for me in Catholic schools. Because the answers were always "Mystery of faith" or "We cannot hope to know the mind of God", and I didn't view them as answers at all, I insisted that they elaborate. And of course they could not because they were stuck working from the rigid Baltimore Catechism which constantly painted them into corners when the logic fell apart.
I mean where do you go when your orthodoxy tells you:
Question # 3 from the Baltimore Catechism:
Quote:
"Why did God make us?"
God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.
So, I would ask, "If God's goal was everlasting happiness for us, and God is all powerful, why didn't God just skip the suffering on Earth part and create creatures in heaven? How is making us go through the apparently avoidable ordeal of life and the possibility of perpetual punishment in hell, any sort of an indication of God's goodness and concern for our happiness?"
"Mystery of faith."
I would press on:
"If as your Catechism says, God has always been perfect and all knowing, then why would God have any need to create the earth and people at all? Wasn't God perfectly happy before God did this? And as an all knowing entity, didn't God know in advance that if it created the Earth and people, it was going to have to take human form and endure horrible sufferings on the cross in order to redeem us? Knowing this, why would God go ahead and create us anyway?"
"We cannot hope to know the mind of God."
Then I would go too far with them:
"If we cannot hope to know the mind of God, what are you folks doing dressed up in religious robes and explaining God's rules to us? Either you know God's mind or you don't. Now which is it?"
Then I would be given detention for being "disruptive in religion class" or "disrespectful of my teachers." Well, they were right about that. I had zero respect for these clowns.
And that is how my Catholic school went about turning out pious and faithful followers of Jesus.
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Ah. I get it...at last.
