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I can't picture how a story about a person deciding whether or not to believe in a religion is really that important. If that's their biggest problem then I don't think their story could really considered "heart wrenching".
But I'm not following you about how this has nothing to do with believing in dogma. Isn't dogma the core reason that causes atheists to question the existence of God in the first place? I can't see how one person believing a higher power causes that much pain for someone else. And if it did, then he should be glad that his problems are not any bigger than that. It's not as if anyone is pointing a gun to their head and demanding anything from them.
Well, with your post, you have clearly demonstrated that you have not read what they have said about themselves and their journeys from belief to non-belief. You should. Then you wouldn't say things like "Isn't dogma the core reason that causes atheists to question the existence of God in the first place?" or "I can't see how one person believing a higher power causes that much pain for someone else." Some of them have had their entire families and communities disown and shun them because they lost their faith. Others had enormous internal conflicts when they realized that they could no longer believe what was being taught in their church. "Heart wrenching" is barely a strong enough term to describe what some have gone through.
Well, with your post, you have clearly demonstrated that you have not read what they have said about themselves and their journeys from belief to non-belief. You should. Then you wouldn't say things like "Isn't dogma the core reason that causes atheists to question the existence of God in the first place?" or "I can't see how one person believing a higher power causes that much pain for someone else." Some of them have had their entire families and communities disown and shun them because they lost their faith. Others had enormous internal conflicts when they realized that they could no longer believe what was being taught in their church. "Heart wrenching" is barely a strong enough term to describe what some have gone through.
I love you mensa, you always prove my point better than i ever could.
I haven't met one, not one, hard core anti-relgious person that hasn't had something bad happen to them and they are out to get a 1lb of flesh, for some, at any cost. they are in a grieving process. There are predictable actions that grieving people do. One is to misjudge the situation as it relates to the big picture.
The bolded proves my point. there comes a point where we have to be honest. Because a person was injured by somebody doesn't give them the right to go running around smashing everybody that is using reasonable claims to believe in something.
I get it, I feel bad that bad things happen to them. I couldn't imagine being shunned for a belief. But I have to be honest, I am man enough to blame my dad for shunning me. I might not even blame him, I would say "wow, he is a sick man.". I love him, but he is messed up kinda thing.
I might even say "that group of people are messed up", as in that single group. I would never lump up any and all spiritual belief in religion and reject all notions because I am mad that I can't strike the person that offended me.
so you are right. it is "heart wrenching", it does not give them the right to go around taking other people's rights and mocking others because they want to get even. It especially doesn't give them they right to change how the universe works because of how they feel about religion.
I love you mensa, you always prove my point better than i ever could.
I haven't met one, not one, hard core anti-relgious person that hasn't had something bad happen to them and they are out to get a 1lb of flesh, for some, at any cost. they are in a grieving process. There are predictable actions that grieving people do. One is to misjudge the situation as it relates to the big picture.
The bolded proves my point. there comes a point where we have to be honest. Because a person was injured by somebody doesn't give them the right to go running around smashing everybody that is using reasonable claims to believe in something.
I get it, I feel bad that bad things happen to them. I couldn't imagine being shunned for a belief. But I have to be honest, I am man enough to blame my dad for shunning me. I might not even blame him, I would say "wow, he is a sick man.". I love him, but he is messed up kinda thing.
I might even say "that group of people are messed up", as in that single group. I would never lump up any and all spiritual belief in religion and reject all notions because I am mad that I can't strike the person that offended me.
so you are right. it is "heart wrenching", it does not give them the right to go around taking other people's rights and mocking others because they want to get even. It especially doesn't give them they right to change how the universe works because of how they feel about religion.
You are just as bad as an obtuse theist.
You choose a single sentence, twist it, and declare victory for your caused based upon the mere whisper of similarity.
I am an atheist, originally raised christian. I suffered no real damage from religion, at least nothing that could not be readily explained by standard teenage angst and insecurity. Yet I am anti-religion because I can see the real harm that religion causes people, and I am firmly convinced that a completely sec7lar society would be superior.
You choose a single sentence, twist it, and declare victory for your caused based upon the mere whisper of similarity.
I am an atheist, originally raised christian. I suffered no real damage from religion, at least nothing that could not be readily explained by standard teenage angst and insecurity. Yet I am anti-religion because I can see the real harm that religion causes people, and I am firmly convinced that a completely sec7lar society would be superior.
no, I left the whole post to make sure I didn't pick and choose. Yes, I focused on one sect in this post. that isn't quite doing the same as you are presenting.
But you do have a point. yes, i tend to focus one a particule sect of atheism that causes trouble just like I pick a particular sect of theist. I do not like millimental atheists and I do not like fundamental theists. I think they are the same personality trait that cause us regulars a ton of needless trouble.
I also was raised christian and had no ill effects from religion. I am convinced that banning religion starts to take rights from people far past what would be considered acceptable.
i have no choice but to look at countries that ban religion as my compassision. because we have no other comparison. Secular states tend to tax charity, something I am totally against. if you can keep secular organizations out of taxes, then maybe. separation of secular organizations and state kind of thing.
heck, look at trans, mord, and others when they take control. all i believe is in a biosphere as life. I have data that supports that. because somebody like you hates religion my stance is smashed, imprisoned, and killed? are you kidding?
na, completely secular would not be better. It completely lost sight of what it means to be human. I mean look around the world and history and show me a great secular society that ruled?
like i said, i haven't met one, not one, hard core anti-religion that doesn't have an axe to grind. I also am a firm believer in separation of church and state. I haven't met one on cd that doesn't have a loved one, friend, or event that they aren't pointing to. The ones that don't say anything know once they do, the gig is up.
lmao, you just did what you accused me of ... lmao, now that is ironical.
you went on the attack, pretty hard, and now you back off. i am ok with actually. its a sign that my claim is probably more valid than the hard core anti-god claims. My guess is that you won't want to compare our actual claims. It won't end very well for the anti-god thumpers. it never does.
Well, you missed the point of my post. I was telling Ozzy that he completely misunderstood the atheists when he made the comment that you replied to. It wasn't my comment at all. It was Ozzy's, and it is complete at odds with what I've heard the atheists say as long as I've read this forum.
Well, you missed the point of my post. I was telling Ozzy that he completely misunderstood the atheists when he made the comment that you replied to. It wasn't my comment at all. It was Ozzy's, and it is complete at odds with what I've heard the atheists say as long as I've read this forum.
I can't see how you claim that it is at odds with posters.
lets look at dogma. We have people that claim "we believe religion is so dangerous we need to do anything to stop it". That looks like a dogmatic statement. it certainly doesn't match a reasonable risk vs benefit list? I mean over organized religion is one thing, all religion is quite another matter.
now lets look at his second statement. You honestly don't think some people experience great pain based on other people's beliefs? we have some in our ranks that foam and drool all over themselves then they encounter a believer. its all over this forum. look at adult children of abuse. they have triggers. "a believer" can be a trigger. I see it on this forum.
then your comment about how some people had horrific experiences with religion.
That's very true, people are abused all over the place and its sickening. I am merely saying, while I understand the horrific abuse, it doesn't give them free rain to push some distorted world view. controlling the power of religion is one thing. bluntly banning and harassing reasonable belief in the name of 'anti-god" is quite another thing.
I can't picture how a story about a person deciding whether or not to believe in a religion is really that important. If that's their biggest problem then I don't think their story could really considered "heart wrenching".
But I'm not following you about how this has nothing to do with believing in dogma. Isn't dogma the core reason that causes atheists to question the existence of God in the first place? I can't see how one person believing a higher power causes that much pain for someone else. And if it did, then he should be glad that his problems are not any bigger than that. It's not as if anyone is pointing a gun to their head and demanding anything from them.
...I am merely saying, while I understand the horrific abuse, it doesn't give them free rain to push some distorted world view. controlling the power of religion is one thing. bluntly banning and harassing reasonable belief in the name of 'anti-god" is quite another thing.
Most people -- and certainly you -- come to a forum like this to "push" a world view. Whether it's distorted or not remains to be seen. Very few atheists that I've seen here on this forum or in other places want or expect to ban religion...and even when they do say that, it's more hyperbole due to frustration than anything else. And as far as "harassing reasonable belief"...first of all, we don't believe the beliefs are "reasonable"; secondly, it's sort of like saying, "I hate the depiction of drugs in movies. I think I'll watch 'Easy Rider' on cable tonight". There are several parts of this forum. What do christians expect to find when they enter the portion of the forum devoted to atheism? I pretty much know what I'm gonna find when I enter the part of the forum dedicated to christianity or Buddhism. I'm 68 years old...never once -- other than in this or one other forum -- have I been approached by an atheist or agnostic. NOT ONCE. But I've sure been approached by christians hawking their beliefs. Have I ever heard of atheism outside of this forum? Sure, in an occasional news story...sort of blip on a huge radar screen.
It's sort of like the old vaudeville joke. "Doctor, it hoits when I do dis". "Den don't do dat". If a christian doesn't want to get involved in vivid back and forth dialogue about atheism, then don't go to the part of the forum where atheists hang out.
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