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A cursory glance at the forum didn’t yield any similar threads, but if there is one, this can be merged.
I’m interested in atheists’ feedback about the “a ha” moment you had, when you realized the gigantic ruse that is religion.
For me, it was watching a nature documentary about lions and hyenas. Watching a wildebeeest literally getting eaten alive by hyenas, a hyena getting its neck and back broken by a male lion just for sport, and baby cheetah cubs also eaten alive by hyenas. It was pretty disturbing.
But, this is nature. It made me really think - If there is a god, in the Judeo-Christian sense, I wouldn’t want that to be my god. If the world was intelligently designed, then it was designed by a sociopath. The idea that a god which is supposedly a moral authority would create an innocent creature like a wildebeest that routinely falls victim to absolutely horrific fates to animals that said god also created makes that god look like, as I said, a sociopath.
I’ve heard the justification from religious people for untimely or unfortunate human deaths that god just “wanted them back” or “wanted to teach a lesson”. Well, what is the lesson for the wildebeest? To stop being a wildebeest? If he wanted the wildebeest back, why would he have it eaten alive first?
Of course, there are countless other examples both in the natural and man-made worlds. But this was a turning point for me. I realized that the concepts of innocence, justice, and sociopathy are human creations. The natural world operates without regard to a god, and I am just another mammal when it comes down to it. I would actually rather there not be a god.
Anyway, just my personal anecdote. I’d be interested in hearing other people’s stories.
When I was a child I was told by my elders that there was a jolly old fat man, all dressed in red, who lived in a workshop at the north pole with toy making elves. And on Christmas eve the jolly old fat man would use his team of magic flying reindeer to pull his magic sleigh, and so the jolly old fat man would bring toys to all of the good little children of the world. How did the jolly old fat man accomplish this? He had magic.
I was also told by my elders that there exists an invisible place, and when people die an invisible part of them goes to this invisible place to reside with invisible friends forever. This would occur if only I would believe, on faith, that Jesus died, but returned to life, and subsequently bodily flew off up into the sky and disappeared into the clouds.
According to one of my favorite movies (I also read the book) there is a land somewhere over the rainbow full of wizards and witches, talking scarecrows and flying blue monkeys, called Oz. And the lesson of the story was, that when you became experienced enough (grown up) you would realize that the wizard was a humbug who had tricked the stupid population (the flock; the sheep) into believing that magic was real.
I also learned from other children that Santa was make believe, a lie concocted by our elders to tell to gullible children. A harmless lie really, meant to delight children with the notion that the world is full of wonders and that children are protected and cherished.
As it turns out, although children may well be cherished by their parents, harsh reality prevails in the world, and in truth children are just as subject to harsh reality as anyone else. This is one of the actual lessons gained in the experience of growing to adulthood.
When I was about eight or so, I began to be clued into the fact, by other children, that Santa and the whole team of flying reindeer routine was nothing but a bunch of make believe. I had secretly suspected that this was the case all along anyway. When I confronted my mother she admitted that the story of Santa was nothing more than make believe and that children were expected to grow out of believing in make believe.
But what of the invisible part of humans that go to an invisible place to be with invisible friends when we die, and the story of the resurrected Jesus who bodily flew up to heaven? Oh, that was all true of course, I was told. By the time I was thirteen however I wasn't buying ANY of it. I didn't know any atheists personally yet, but I knew there was such a thing as atheism, and I knew I was an atheist by default. Harsh reality (observation) indicates that all living things die eventually. Some people simply cannot handle that knowledge.
It wasn't a conversion moment, but I do have a distinct recollection of the first time I offered any sort of challenge to what was being spoon fed to me by the nuns at my Catholic grade school. In 8th grade I had a lay teacher for everything except an hour a day of religious instruction when a nun came in took over. After listening to some bullbleep about how god made us because he loved us so much and even came down and died on the cross because he loved us so much etc...I stuck up my hand and:
Me: Sister, you said that god is all powerful, right?
Her: God is all powerful
Me: And you said that god knows everything, even before it happens, right?
Her: God is all knowing.
Me: And you said god is perfect, right?
Her: God is perfect.
Me: Well, if god was perfect, then god was perfectly happy. And if god was perfectly happy, what need would god have to create anything, much less a planet full of people who were so ungrateful and wicked that god would have to take the form of a human, come down to earth and suffer horribly on the cross to save them from themselves? I mean, god knew all this would happen if it created people, yet it went ahead and did it anyway despite being perfectly happy in the first place?"
She looked at me like she had just seen a dog talk and gave me the standard "Mystery of faith" dodge of a response.
And of course the next step in my evolution was to start viewing the priests, nuns and brothers, my instructors, as less logical than myself. I went from viewing them as frauds to viewing their dogma as fraudulent.
Definitely sort of two moments for me - one as an adolescent being dragged to church by two aunts, one Catholic and one Southern Baptist. Both churches were absolutely certainly that only their dogma was correct and that everyone else was a heretic. At the time it was a pretty quick step from "you can't both be right" to "huh, well then, you're both wrong."
At that point I just labeled myself sort of agnostic (I doubt I used the word), my general belief was that there might be a god, but religion was wholly invented by man.
Then as an adult I switched from the polite "I'm not really a church member" to "I am an atheist," especially as I saw religious groups trying to force religion back into public schools and public school curriculum.
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I went to a private Catholic school for about 7 years. By 6th or 7th grade is when we started having to source what we wrote in a report/essay from another text.
I was probably 11 or so. Religious education was a daily thing. When we'd write some sort of report on, for example, history - we had that Bibliography or whatever in the back of the report that showed where our information was sourced. Part of one of the lessons about sourcing material had to do with being able to ascertain the accuracy and validity of a source. Take an encyclopedia for example. If it was 1990 and I was sourcing an encyclopedia from 1950, the validity of that information would be highly questionable if I was writing a report about smallpox (which had been eradicated in the interim).
At some point, we had to write some report on certain books of the bible. I don't recall the context, but we weren't asked to source anything. I thought that was rather weird. So I asked why we didn't need to source the Bible explicitly and I was told that what was in the Bible was fact. "Well, why is it fact? It is a rather old text after all. The validity of what's in there could be called into question."
So, I was sent to the principal's office. She was a very kind lady but also took no nonsense when it came to questioning religion. I did the stereotypical thing that I think happened in Catholic school where I had to write on the board ad nauseum "I accept the Word of God in the Bible" or something like that.
One of the teachers thought I'd benefit from speaking to our church's pastor. So I did. He was a nice guy - more relatable than the other priests. He'd like to talk about football in his sermons and that for whatever reason struck me as kind of funny for a priest. Anyway, I didn't receive any better answers from him. Every answer he had pointed back to the bible - a text that according to my own education at school was questionable due to its age and whether the context of it was still appropriate today. And failing that, this guy that went to seminary school for years and the best answer he had for my questions was that I needed to have "faith."
I think that was my a-ha moment.
I kept up the charade for my parents' sake. Did my weekly 1-hour droning and trance until I went to college. But those last 6 years or so were awfully painful.
I also learned from other children that Santa was make believe, a lie concocted by our elders to tell to gullible children. A harmless lie really, meant to delight children with the notion that the world is full of wonders and that children are protected and cherished.
That's sort of my sentiment as well. Santa is a nice story. It does delight children. How does he do it? Magic! Some parents may even use it to control their children's behavior (You better watch out! Santa's watching! So clean your room!)
I see religion in pretty much the same light. It can be a nice story. It is magic. Some parents may even use it to control their children's behavior (You better watch out. God's watching! So clean your room or you'll burn in hell!)
It is a means to an end and nothing more. I remember my mom trying to sell me on the concept that at Confirmation the "Holy Spirit" would guide me. Or in reality, the idea of the Holy Spirit would keep me making good decisions since I wouldn't want to let down God (or something?).
It is all just a story. And it isn't like the moment I came to realize that it was all nonsense I suddenly started kicking puppies. If anything, I realized that "taking the lord's name in vain" was completely bogus. So I had free reign on something finally. Of course, then I realized that it means absolutely nothing. It is just words and nothing else.
I kept up the charade for my parents' sake. Did my weekly 1-hour droning and trance until I went to college. But those last 6 years or so were awfully painful.
I too sustained a charade for the benefit of my parents, but it wasn't pretense of believing, it was merely pretense of attending mass. My folks made a habit of attending the 11:30 am mass. I'd get up early on Sundays and announce that I was going to the 9 am mass. Instead I went over to my friend Joe's place and we hung out for an hour. Then we told his folks we were going to the 10 am mass and instead went to my house and hung out. The times this exchange wasn't possible, I'd fake going to the 9 am mass and instead hang out at the shopping center about a mile away. I once ran into my sister while doing this and discovered that she was also allegedly attending mass.
In retrospect it all seems so transparent that I believe my folks knew what was going on, but were willing to accept the pretense rather than confront me. That was my family....epic denial whenever the need arose.
That's sort of my sentiment as well. Santa is a nice story. It does delight children. How does he do it? Magic! Some parents may even use it to control their children's behavior (You better watch out! Santa's watching! So clean your room!)
I see religion in pretty much the same light. It can be a nice story. It is magic. Some parents may even use it to control their children's behavior (You better watch out. God's watching! So clean your room or you'll burn in hell!)
It is a means to an end and nothing more. I remember my mom trying to sell me on the concept that at Confirmation the "Holy Spirit" would guide me. Or in reality, the idea of the Holy Spirit would keep me making good decisions since I wouldn't want to let down God (or something?).
It is all just a story. And it isn't like the moment I came to realize that it was all nonsense I suddenly started kicking puppies. If anything, I realized that "taking the lord's name in vain" was completely bogus. So I had free reign on something finally. Of course, then I realized that it means absolutely nothing. It is just words and nothing else.
The story of Santa doesn't come with an evil demon, however. With Santa, if you aren't good the worst that might happen is that you won't get any presents for Christmas. Christians claim that the devil takes bad little boys and girls to hell for an eternity of torture. But of course the real torture for such children is having parents who teach them to be terrified of make believe in nonsense.
In retrospect it all seems so transparent that I believe my folks knew what was going on, but were willing to accept the pretense rather than confront me. That was my family....epic denial whenever the need arose.
I wish I was capable of the "I'm going to the early mass" but that wouldn't fly with them. However, your statement about them "willing to accept the pretense rather than confront me" is how college went. I boarded at college so they probably just assumed I was going to church on Sundays still.
I think after four years though, the pretense was dropped and there was no confrontation about it. By the time I was in my late twenties, I made it quite clear that I no longer practiced religion and declared my freedom from such nonsense. My mother was surprisingly understanding. I think she felt accomplished enough that I was baptized and received communion and what not. Maybe that will "save" me?
A cursory glance at the forum didn’t yield any similar threads, but if there is one, this can be merged.
I’m interested in atheists’ feedback about the “a ha” moment you had, when you realized the gigantic ruse that is religion.
For me, it was watching a nature documentary about lions and hyenas. Watching a wildebeeest literally getting eaten alive by hyenas, a hyena getting its neck and back broken by a male lion just for sport, and baby cheetah cubs also eaten alive by hyenas. It was pretty disturbing.
But, this is nature. It made me really think - If there is a god, in the Judeo-Christian sense, I wouldn’t want that to be my god. If the world was intelligently designed, then it was designed by a sociopath. The idea that a god which is supposedly a moral authority would create an innocent creature like a wildebeest that routinely falls victim to absolutely horrific fates to animals that said god also created makes that god look like, as I said, a sociopath.
I’ve heard the justification from religious people for untimely or unfortunate human deaths that god just “wanted them back” or “wanted to teach a lesson”. Well, what is the lesson for the wildebeest? To stop being a wildebeest? If he wanted the wildebeest back, why would he have it eaten alive first?
Of course, there are countless other examples both in the natural and man-made worlds. But this was a turning point for me. I realized that the concepts of innocence, justice, and sociopathy are human creations. The natural world operates without regard to a god, and I am just another mammal when it comes down to it. I would actually rather there not be a god.
Anyway, just my personal anecdote. I’d be interested in hearing other people’s stories.
Good question and I have no idea how to answer it. I didn't really have an "a-ha" moment, if I did I don't remember it. It was a slow progression out of fundamentalist Christianity. I can tell you what started me on the journey though, it was the ridiculous belief in an eternal fiery hell. Even as a devout religious nut, I could never wrap my head around that belief.
So I started to talk with atheists here at C-D, first I was arguing with them and then I started to listen. They were absolutely correct but I still wasn't ready to let go of my beliefs. I ran across Universalism in the religion forum, something I had never heard of. I climbed on board of that fantasy ship for a little while until I realized, when and where I don't know, that it too made absolutely no sense.
I have been an agnostic atheist for about 4 years now and being set free (cause that's how it felt) from all of that religious garbage I was force-fed from birth has been so great. I am actually embarrassed that I ever believed in that nonsense but in my defense it was all I ever knew and was taught. I do not know any atheists in real life so I come here to mingle with the like-minded.
It is no one's fault that I "lost my religion" - actually being brought up religious because of some ancient text that ignorant goat herders wrote thousands of years ago is at fault. I don't blame my family because they didn't know any better either. Actually I didn't lose anything, I gained knowledge and started to look at things more logically.
The documentary you watched was your a-ha moment, I could never bring myself to watch things like that but I feel exactly the same way - if there were a god, it would be nothing like the bible god. A good god would not allow such horrible things to happen to children, animals, people, communities and there definitely wouldn't be any death. So, there must not be a god!
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