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It isn’t about being polite - it’s about results. How can we educate and keep religion out of our government and schools (or be taken seriously in our communities) if we are perceived as angry people who wish to strip people of their religious freedom in their homes? It’s banging one’s head on the wall to continuously talk about the ‘facts’ with a religious person - when most rely on faith, tradition, family, etc. My anger is not that Anybody on the forum believes in God (or any other religion) - the real issue is upholding separation of church and state. If it were simply about facts, Christianity would have died a long time ago.
It doesn’t matter what claim ‘they buy into’ on a personal level; what matters is keeping any religion (true or not) separated from, and not part of, our government and schools in any way.
We have to change the perception of what atheism is and what it is trying to do. Inevitably, some are going to see the driving religion out of a position of social and political interference as alarming. They have been taught that religion makes people better. In an odd way the wrangling here gives the lie to that. The religious side show themselves hate -filled, denialist and irrational. No advertisement for religion. The results (a bit out of date, now) show that the message is getting over. We have to hope that the trend will continue.
Please note, Trans probably thinks President Trump is a fundamentalist...he's fighting this war from across the pond.
Trump doesn't care tuppence for religion, only insofar as he can use it. But just wonder how many Christian fundamentalists voted republican compared to how many voted democrat, and see what you think is p[robable.
I watched video (who can say how much was engineered?) but the Trump supporters seemed so often to say "He's sound on the Bible".
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Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
It was in direct response to a post which quoted me. And yes, there are people who say they don’t care about religion in people’s homes - yet they will spend countless hours on this forum arguing ‘facts’ with Christians.
Of course. Didn't I explain that? we have to say WHY we think religion is wrong in order to have a rationale of why we should have a humanist society rather than a religious one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
That’s where the short-sidedness comes in. Some people are simply here to discuss their beliefs - or maybe debate topics, rather than a person’s individual beliefs (whereas some are only here to browbeat). If it’s so important to persuade someone’s individual belief system (though I don’t know why it would be), then clearly, in the case of Christians, screaming facts and belittling out of emotion, is not the effective way. Christianity has endured because it transcends logic; it is not because no one ever pointed out the facts before this forum.
Irreligion is (at last count) on the increase because people do (I believe) want to hold to valid beliefs rather than Faith. If we explain the situation that Faith is not praiseworthy, and the Bible is Not reliable and a humanist society is no threat to religious freedom, but a Christian fundamentalist one is, and even the religious will begin to see that it will benefit them to have a society not based on religion.
We have to keep explaining this, and we have to hope that the last figures will keep going as projected. Though I dread the projected increase of Islam.
Of course. Didn't I explain that? we have to say WHY we think religion is wrong in order to have a rationale of why we should have a humanist society rather than a religious one.
The WHY to any one particular religion (or group) doesn’t matter - atheism is one of those ‘groups’. None have favor over the other. Some atheists would be less hated if they weren’t seen as trying to elevate themselves above the Establishment Clause.
Of course there is! I was merely pointing out in order to have an intelligent debate (about any subject), one must have a clear understanding of (both sides of) the topic. So to constantly argue ‘facts’ in the case of a person’s belief in Christianity is likely not enough - and results in hostile emotion from each side. That you and I would base it on fact is irrelevant within the context of a ‘debate’ with a Christian.
Arguing the 'Facts' (as you put it) is surely the way to go. Let it generate emotion on the theist side. We can handle it. It just makes them look bad. Keep showing where their 'facts' are wrong, their logic is incorrect, and their emotional response is not making them look very creditable. It's one reason why we rule this forum now.
Just look a Vic. recently - one of the toughest opponents we have had in recent months. But very quickly where he was wrong has pointed out, and where at least atheism had a valid case (even if one conceded that he had a case at all), and his persistent banging away at arguments tbat had not established his claims (even if not debunked ones) did him no good in the end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
Focusing on bigotry and hatred is self-serving and irrelevant in upholding the Constitution. The law is not ‘emotionally-based’ - which is exactly why Christianity (or hatred) doesn’t belong in it.
But if nobody points that out, nobody will know it. If the emotion and hate isn't exposed, those who do it will get away with it, and those who have been taught that 'religion is good for you) will continue to enable the hate and bigotry using then 'look at all the good it does', excuse. They have to realise that this is not a reason to enable the intolerance of the fundamentalist Christianity that is behind the efforts to subvert education, the law and politics.
Let them opt for 'none' for religion, and they can believe in whatever god they like.
Just look a Vic. recently - one of the toughest opponents we have had in recent months. But very quickly where he was wrong has pointed out, and where at least atheism had a valid case (even if one conceded that he had a case at all), and his persistent banging away at arguments tbat had not established his claims (even if not debunked ones) did him no good in the end.
Of which arguments do you speak? The incomplete problem of evil argument? The false dilemma that is the Euthyphro? All of your anti-theistic arguments lay in ruins.
We have to change the perception of what atheism is and what it is trying to do. Inevitably, some are going to see the driving religion out of a position of social and political interference as alarming. They have been taught that religion makes people better. In an odd way the wrangling here gives the lie to that. The religious side show themselves hate -filled, denialist and irrational. No advertisement for religion. The results (a bit out of date, now) show that the message is getting over. We have to hope that the trend will continue.
I think religion can make some people better, and others worse. My disappointment is that there are people who can only be good based on a book that preaches about evil and punishment. I think there was a movie called, "I can do bad all by myself". Well, many of us can do good all by ourselves, as well.
Which proves what? There was a survey that showed that atheist are the most distrusted people in the US. Why? We ain't that bad. What is the reason why we are so hated? That was the question of the OP. That we are not religious believers is reason enough. That we stand up and say so, is even worse. That we win at it drives them crazy. But none of those are good reasons to hate us. It just speaks to the mental grip that religion has on people.
Because we speak ot and do it effectively is not the reason we are hated. We were hated when we covered out of sight. If anything we are getting more listened to and even accepted because we are speaking out and doing it effectively. Of course those who still hate us rage and rant even more loudly. But that just them look bad, not us.
Edit: I'm only 14 minutes into the second video but I'm already impressed with it. She makes some good points about religion should serve the family not using the family to serve religion. That was a big thing in the sect I grew up in. The group exploited family bonds.
Last edited by L8Gr8Apost8; 02-20-2019 at 10:21 PM..
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