Organized Atheism and its Sexism problem (salvation, Jesus Christ, Savior, views)
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I believe what Cruithne means is that the atheist arguments are different ones when directed against the claims of religions or the god -claim' which does not have to be related to any particular religion. I rather got the impression that your 'god' was rather like the 'god' of people of other religions, or even no religion, but who postulate a cosmic spirit that can be mentally experienced.
Yep. I suspect that Cb will automatically think in term of the all -encompassing 'god' as though the religion she uses to access it but would probably say that the god of Islam and Christianity are actually all the same.
I think she's in a position to learn a lot while she's here.
If Charlygirl doesn't answer, I'd say 'yes' - at first glance. But there might be good reasons why they got the job. But anti - sexism might say 'but a proportion of women should hold that job, even if a male's qualifications are better'. Accusations of positive discrimination would be brushed aside with diversity being more important than suitability.
Which has a case, after all the starving deserve to be given food while others can wait. Criminals can't complain that they are being discriminated against by the law. Discrimination is sometimes needed and justified.
All that said, was the situation that you describe 'sexist'?
I'd need more information. Was at any all boys school. Did only men apply?
Thank you for sharing your thought. I realize i had a basic misunderstanding that atheism was not only about lack of belief in a deity or god but also religion which to me are the two sides of the same coin. Apparently i am wrong so i need to think about a non-belief in a belief, and no problem with religion bit. My whole argument was based on atheists rejecting religion. Apparently that is not so, they are only about non-belief in a belief.
Very good. But still a misconception. Atheism as a logical position on the god -claim is just a position on that, not about religion.
'They' atheists are not a logical position, mindset or worldview, but people who (by definition) have no belief in a god and so live their lives without a god -belief.
Nothing may change at all. After all a humanist and technological society is what we are using and theism and religion is an optional extra, even in societies that don't give people much of a choice.
They may stop church -going,
They may never have attended a church (or whatever) anyway (irreligious theism is not uncommon)
They may see a lot of problems with religion that they didn't bother about before (or maybe they did which might have been a factor in deconversion) and decide to become 'active'.
They may not.
They may continue church -going even if they don't believe in it anymore. Maybe going to an 'irreligious' church.
You see, atheism - not believing in a god, still leaves the atheist open to a lot of options about how to relate to religion (though not believing in a god must weigh against doing religion) atheism does not have instructions about whether to become active or not.
Nor of course that one has to become anti racism or sexism. But that would probably be the tendency.
Which won't stop believers using an accusation that we are racist and sexist, or at least aren't making that the overriding priority of new atheism, a stick to beat atheism with.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-28-2021 at 11:35 PM..
Very good. But still a misconception. Atheism as a logical position on the god -claim is just a position on that, not about religion.
'They' atheists are not a logical position, mindset or worldview, but people who (by definition) have no belief in a god and so live their lives without a god -belief.
Nothing may change at all. After all a humanist and technological society is what we are using and theism and religion is an optional extra, even in societies that don't give people much of a choice.
They may stop church -going,
They may never have attended a church (or whatever) anyway (irreligion theism is not uncommon)
They may see a lot of problems with religion that they didn't bother bout before (or maybe they did which might have been a factor in deconversion) and decide to become 'active'.not.
They may not.
They may continue church -going even if they don't believe in it anymore. Maybe going to an 'irreligious' church.
You see, atheism - not believing in a god, still leaves the atheist open to a lot of options about how to relate to religion (though not believing in a god must weight against doing religion) atheism does not have instructions about whether to become active or not.
Nor of course that one has to become anti racism or sexism. But that would probably bee the tendency.
Which won't stop believers using an accusation that we are racist and sexist, or at least aren't making that the overriding priority of new atheism, a stick to beat atheism with.
I didn't feel that accusation. Saying something is a problem within a group isn't the same as saying the group is racist or sexist. Saying women should be in subjection to men and aren't fit to lead is a core tenant of some groups. They don't have a problem with sexism they are sexist.
Point taken, but I have a nose for bias, and I get the impression (open to being corrected) that our posting pal Cb was trying to find anything in atheism that could be made to look sexist (mainly) or at least not being anti -sexist enough, when she said herself religion was not to be praised much in that respect.
I'm reminded of cartoon I can recall with a churchgoer leaning out of a church window shouting as some atheists with placards "I wouldn't trust you atheists with my wallet!" while a bishop and preacher lift his coat tails and lift the wallet.
I can't help thinking the idea is bashing atheism rather than combating sexism.
I was on vacation and cleaning my house all day. My best friend invited me over to her and her boyfriend's house to sit and get drunk in his garage. I said yes and went after my husband got home so I didn't have to expose my daughter to a drunk fest. They lived 2 miles away but I don't drink and drive so I planned to crash in the spare bedroom. I was wearing the same jeans, t-shirt, hair up, no makeup I had been wearing all day.
There was me, my friend, another girlfriend, her boyfriend and a different guy friend I knew. I had gotten drunk with all these people before. These are cool people. We are sitting there getting wasted chatting it up and a truck pulls up with 3 guys I had never seen before. Her boyfriend knew them somehow but no one else did. They had a 6y pack for 3 big guys. I thought that was weird because we were downright alkies so why would they drink with us. About 2 hours later I am super drunk and just tired so I decide to call it a night. I go in and lay in the spare bedroom. All of a sudden I feel someone get on the bed with my and start putting his hand down the front of my jeans. I know how big these guys are and I try to decide what to do. Do I scream? No, he's too big and could cover my mouth. I decide to jump up as fast as I can and just run. I'm hoping him expecting me to be passed out will give me the element of surprise and enough time to get away.
I go flying out the side door with him right behind me. As soon as his friends see me they go running to their trucks. They all get in their trucks and speed away. They knew what he was in there doing. They were waiting for one of us to pass out and whoever it was was probably going to be raped by all three. The people left up partying would have never even known. Whoever was raped would have known but since she was drinking she probably should just keep her yap shut according to Dawkins.
And no, I didn't lead him on. This was the extent of my interaction with him.
Me: "where do you work"
Him: "I deliver furniture for Room and Board"
Me: "I love that store, can't afford it but I love it"
These guys were not talkers and didn't even try to interact they just sat there for 2 hours nursing a 6 pack between them while us women were getting drunk.
So I have a question. Let's say I had been passed out drunk and was raped by 3 men. Does that mean I cheated on my husband?
Last edited by L8Gr8Apost8; 03-01-2021 at 12:22 AM..
Point taken, but I have a nose for bias, and I get the impression (open to being corrected) that our posting pal Cb was trying to find anything in atheism that could be made to look sexist (mainly) or at least not being anti -sexist enough, when she said herself religion was not to be praised much in that respect.
I'm reminded of cartoon I can recall with a churchgoer leaning out of a church window shouting as some atheists with placards "I wouldn't trust you atheists with my wallet!" while a bishop and preacher lift his coat tails and lift the wallet.
I can't help thinking the idea is bashing atheism rather than combating sexism.
There is no sure way to combat bias. It might help you to try and look at what is being said and not who is saying it or who it's being said about. Stick to the principle.
There is no sure way to combat bias. It might help you to try and look at what is being said and not who is saying it or who it's being said about. Stick to the principle.
The only thing to do to combat bias is to keep advocating rationalism and logic. Critical thinking (which is destructive to bias) isn't that hard to learn. This means that what is being said and whether it shows bias becomes the principal thing and not who is saying or what their agenda might me.
Rather, those who suppose that what i mean by bias is who is saying it and not what is being said, are betraying the approach they'd have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
This is a quote from Dawkins. Read it, agree or disagree, then you can hear my experience and decide if this is a problem or not.
I was on vacation and cleaning my house all day. My best friend invited me over to her and her boyfriend's house to sit and get drunk in his garage. I said yes and went after my husband got home so I didn't have to expose my daughter to a drunk fest. They lived 2 miles away but I don't drink and drive so I planned to crash in the spare bedroom. I was wearing the same jeans, t-shirt, hair up, no makeup I had been wearing all day.
There was me, my friend, another girlfriend, her boyfriend and a different guy friend I knew. I had gotten drunk with all these people before. These are cool people. We are sitting there getting wasted chatting it up and a truck pulls up with 3 guys I had never seen before. Her boyfriend knew them somehow but no one else did. They had a 6y pack for 3 big guys. I thought that was weird because we were downright alkies so why would they drink with us. About 2 hours later I am super drunk and just tired so I decide to call it a night. I go in and lay in the spare bedroom. All of a sudden I feel someone get on the bed with my and start putting his hand down the front of my jeans. I know how big these guys are and I try to decide what to do. Do I scream? No, he's too big and could cover my mouth. I decide to jump up as fast as I can and just run. I'm hoping him expecting me to be passed out will give me the element of surprise and enough time to get away.
I go flying out the side door with him right behind me. As soon as his friends see me they go running to their trucks. They all get in their trucks and speed away. They knew what he was in there doing. They were waiting for one of us to pass out and whoever it was was probably going to be raped by all three. The people left up partying would have never even known. Whoever was raped would have known but since she was drinking she probably should just keep her yap shut according to Dawkins.
And no, I didn't lead him on. This was the extent of my interaction with him.
Me: "where do you work"
Him: "I deliver furniture for Room and Board"
Me: "I love that store, can't afford it but I love it"
These guys were not talkers and didn't even try to interact they just sat there for 2 hours nursing a 6 pack between them while us women were getting drunk.
So I have a question. Let's say I had been passed out drunk and was raped by 3 men. Does that mean I cheated on my husband?
That's getting too deep for me to answer. There are a dozen points I can see being made at the trial, and the thing that I have to say as an atheist is that I don't care for the religious solution - keep the wife at home and don't let her go out.
As a humanist consent is all important. There ought to be a Rule that No means no. I'm not even going to get into the matter of why this is a horror story and me getting sexually assaulted by three girls wouldn't be. They wouldn't need to get me drunk.
I'm just asking how a sexism - gender issues discussion relates to the religion forum.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-01-2021 at 12:45 AM..
That's getting too deep for me to answer. There are a dozen points I can see being made at the trial, and the thing that I have to say as an atheist is that I don't care for the religious solution - keep the wife at home and don't let her go out.
As a humanist consent is all important. There ought to be a Rule that No means no. I'm not even going to get into the matter of why this is a horror story and me getting sexually assaulted by three girls wouldn't be. They wouldn't need to get me drunk.
I'm just asking how a sexism - gender issues discussion relates to the religion forum.
And this is how you alienate women like the article said. Many many many women have stories like this. Some didn't get away.
And this is how you alienate women like the article said. Many many many women have stories like this. Some didn't get away.
This is why atheism may look like a boys' club. Women roll up and demand that anti -sexism is made the priority issue and when it is remarked that discrimination is an incidental issue, they march out. Those who stay, making atheism, not gender issues, the priority, find that we (atheist men) are very supportive of feminism.
I've said enough that you should see where my sympathies lie. The response was not unexpected -unless I get 100% on board and let you tell me what my priorities should be, I'm part of the problem.
And you still have to tell me why this is relevant to forum topic.
This is why atheism may look like a boys' club. Women roll up and demand that anti -sexism is made the priority issue and when it is remarked that discrimination is an an incidental issue, they march out.
I've said enough that you see where my sympathies lie. The response was not unexpected -unless I get 100% on board and let you tell me what my priorities should be, I'm part of the problem.
Its not a march out thing. Its a lose respect thing. You didn't have to say anything and neither did Dawkins. Presenting my position as I expect 100 % compliance or I'll get all huffy is...let me think if the critical thinking term...yeah, there it is in the bottom if my purse right next to my car keys ( do you know women are taught to hold their car keys between their fingers in case a man attacks them. That way you can try and poke his eyes and get away) STRAWMANNING.
No you don't need to say anything to support me. All I expect is for you to keep your mouth shut like Dawkins expects women to do if they've been drinking.
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