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I'm reviving this thread because I thought of a new thing to discuss: Memories.
I was having a chat to my brother this weekend. We are both in our mid fifties (he's an atheist as well).
We got to chatting about all things early childhood:the mechanical toys my brother had for example. We could both remember fine detail including the exact colors and features of a wind up tin robot he had. We discussed at length things that we could both remember that neither of us have thought about for 40+ years at least. Isn't this a remarkable thing?
My brother said, how can this lump of jelly we call a brain store this information?
Tongue in cheek, my response was: 'god'.
Seriously though, there's no rational explanation that I can think of. It's like storing a code that you can instantly drag out decades later and that two people can clearly communicate and understand.
Your comments...
(Theists also welcome to this thread BTW)
I don't know why memory is a mystery that there is no rational explanation for. It's not a fully understood process, but we know an awful lot about it too.
I don't know why memory is a mystery that there is no rational explanation for. It's not a fully understood process, but we know an awful lot about it too.
Are we discussing memory itself or personal 'memories'? The big supposedly unanswerable questions are completely explainable by Christians. They got an answer for every damn thing. Answers in their minds only, never facts or anything resembling tangible, undeniable proof or evidence. The bible doesn't help matters.
You would think that they would see something wrong with their oh-so-accurate interpretations....or lack thereof. I mean, there's only a million different ones and the fact that no one can agree(all religionists)should give them a hint that something is wrong with that picture. I guess we have to wait for the Anti-Christ to bring all these different religions and interpretations together as one.
I guess I didn't even discuss memory, so fill me in on what kind of memories?
Cruithne started this in post 242 that resurrected this thread, concerning how "this lump of jelly" (the brain) could recall childhood memories in great detail.
I think sometimes the natural world is a source of such wonder to us that it seem "miraculous", therefore god. In fact that was Cruithne's tongue-in-cheek answer.
Believers, as you say, have an explanation for everything; that certitude is one of the attractions of the faith, and back in the day I remember feeling rather smug about it myself and sort of pitying those who didn't have that "clarity".
While I honestly don't think the ability of a brain to store and retrieve memories is one of the harder "mysteries" that most people wrestle with and cast about for answers to (I don't recall even Christians actually claiming god as a necessary ingredient for that), it is a wonderful thing. Not quite as wonderful as we might think, as it's not at all uncommon for two people who shared an experience to remember it very differently (and confidently!). My stepdaughter for instance is quite adamant that her mother "never did anything for her", such as cook family meals, and with her I never know if it's deliberate gaslighting / erasing or if she really remembers it that way. But I was present for the tail end of her childhood and her mother cooked meals everyday. It was the daughter that would in fact always slink off to her room to avoid helping with cooking or the subsequent cleanup. From my perspective Mom was almost OVER-involved in exta-curriculars, attending various "away" events to support her kid's involvements, things like that. A total momma-bear, but not in her daughter's telling. You can imagine my wife's suffering at her daughter acting out as an adult like this.
So memory is way more fungible than people generally acknowledge. And memories are attached to sentient beings with varying levels of character and differing motivations, not all of them rational or kind.
At any rate ... what strikes me about all this is that the complexity, diversity and beauty of the natural world is one of the big things believers point to when they make their arguments from personal incredulity that there has to be a creator. In my experience, the natural world is no less impressive because I believe in other explanations or at times don't even have intuitive and satisfying ones. The natural world is also kind of sloppy and messy and violent and inefficient and frequently deadly, too; it's not all sweetness and light and most of us can think of ways it could be improved. It produces tremendous beauty and a riot of diversity. It also produces pandemics and tsunamis.
Cruithne started this in post 242 that resurrected this thread, concerning how "this lump of jelly" (the brain) could recall childhood memories in great detail.
I saw that after I had posted, sometimes I post before I read. LOL lump of jelly is right, mine is on overload at 3:36 a.m. insomnia fest.
Quote:
I think sometimes the natural world is a source of such wonder to us that it seem "miraculous", therefore god. In fact that was Cruithne's tongue-in-cheek answer.
I know, I did that for so many years. Now, I seem to be tongue-in-cheek infected.
Quote:
Believers, as you say, have an explanation for everything; that certitude is one of the attractions of the faith, and back in the day I remember feeling rather smug about it myself and sort of pitying those who didn't have that "clarity".
Hmm, pity and clarity, yep, sounds about right. And, it seems to have taken over a few people's lives, extreme examples are right here on CD. We don't possess the "knowledge".
Quote:
While I honestly don't think the ability of a brain to store and retrieve memories is one of the harder "mysteries" that most people wrestle with and cast about for answers to (I don't recall even Christians actually claiming god as a necessary ingredient for that), it is a wonderful thing. Not quite as wonderful as we might think, as it's not at all uncommon for two people who shared an experience to remember it very differently (and confidently!). My stepdaughter for instance is quite adamant that her mother "never did anything for her", such as cook family meals, and with her I never know if it's deliberate gaslighting / erasing or if she really remembers it that way. But I was present for the tail end of her childhood and her mother cooked meals everyday. It was the daughter that would in fact always slink off to her room to avoid helping with cooking or the subsequent cleanup. From my perspective Mom was almost OVER-involved in exta-curriculars, attending various "away" events to support her kid's involvements, things like that. A total momma-bear, but not in her daughter's telling. You can imagine my wife's suffering at her daughter acting out as an adult like this.
My memory has never been real good, and I think I irritate and exacerbate the exasperation lol that everyone feels because of it. My memories are sharp as far as what I do remember, however. Of course, I indulge in the ganja too much. J/K Oh geez, that's an awful thing to say to your Mother whether she cooked dinner or not! Yes, I can certainly understand your wife's severe disappointment and hurt feelings.
Quote:
So memory is way more fungible than people generally acknowledge. And memories are attached to sentient beings with varying levels of character and differing motivations, not all of them rational or kind.
At any rate ... what strikes me about all this is that the complexity, diversity and beauty of the natural world is one of the big things believers point to when they make their arguments from personal incredulity that there has to be a creator. In my experience, the natural world is no less impressive because I believe in other explanations or at times don't even have intuitive and satisfying ones. The natural world is also kind of sloppy and messy and violent and inefficient and frequently deadly, too; it's not all sweetness and light and most of us can think of ways it could be improved. It produces tremendous beauty and a riot of diversity. It also produces pandemics and tsunamis.
You are so right about that, that was one of my talking points as a Christian. "How could you NOT see god in nature"? I mean, come on! I couldn't understand why others couldn't see what I saw. Now, I can't understand why others can't see what I see, very clearly and precisely. Never had this much "clarity".
True story. We have worked with a shelter that had a dog that was there for years because he seemed to not want to leave with anyone. After five years he was a permanent fixture and my husband worked with the cats a lot and often kittens would get loose. The dog, huge mutt, would go get the kitten in his mouth and gently bring it back to my husband. My husband got him a collar that said “Assistant Cat Co-coordinator” on it. The shelter got a grant of some kind, can’t remember what but a local news crew showed up to film the hand over of the check and the dog is showing off his collar to everyone so he ends up in the segment. After it airs a guy calls up claiming the dog. The shelter told him he has to come with a picture of him and the dog. The guy shows up but before he can get out of his vehicle the dog is out the door on top of him slobbering all over him. His dog had been missing seven years.
Animals have memories as well as humans, as has been well documented.
There's a reason for the phase 'an elephant never forgets'.
What is the mechanism for drawing memories from many years ago from this organic matter we call a brain? A mystery, no?
What is the mechanism for drawing memories from many years ago from this organic matter we call a brain? A mystery, no?
Not totally, no. We know that memories are not stored in a single location but the semi-holographic nature of how that is stored has not been decoded, at least not entirely -- though it makes perfect sense because it has built-in redundancy so that if some part of the "lump of jelly" is damaged or destroyed, memories can still be retrieved, just at lower fidelity or with more difficulty in some cases.
We also know that specific memories are not as exact as all that. As the years grind on my memories of how my late / prior wife looked or sounded have gotten a little fuzzier for example. If my childhood dog were resurrected I would probably tentatively recognize it but it would have more to do with a salt-and-pepper Schnauzer appearing out of nowhere (I can count on one hand the number of them I've seen since I was a kid) and I would have to verify it by looking for his ruptured navel and his ear tattoo before I would begin to believe it.
The things I recall prior to about 20 years ago are almost entirely things with a heavy emotional valence attached to them. Even my late wife, who died 15 years ago, I remember most clearly in the key moments of transcendence in our relationship. I remember the face of the harpy that was my 3rd grade teacher almost as well as my mother's face because the teacher traumatized and publicly humiliated me. I remember, in a very hazy way, my maternal grandfather despite him dying when I was about 3 years old because he held me in his arms and made me feel very important by letting me "wind" his cuckoo clock. I can look at the wall of my office as I write this and see this clock, too. What I remember about grandpa was the warmth of his embrace and the love emanating from his person. The rest is probably filled in from old photos and the fact the one of my brothers looks almost dead-on like him.
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They got an answer for every damn thing. Answers in their minds only, never facts or anything resembling tangible, undeniable proof or evidence. The bible doesn't help matters. 
