The extent of atheistic thought (Revelation, marriage, create, demon)
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Not really. What we have here may well be nothing more than a semantic disagreement. Those don't typically have much to do with cleverness.
I will argue why time definitely exists though.
We have clocks. We measure time through clocks. We measure time in other ways. Time is quite relevant to us. I can therefore think of no reason to claim it doesn't exist in at least some valid contexts.
Perhaps you should define what you mean by "time."
If time is merely movement, it exists. If time is the sensation that we are flowing through our environment, it exists.
It exists in the same way other things exist that aren't what we see them as. My keyboard, for example, is either mostly, or entirely, empty space. It doesn't feel like that though. I still call it a solid object.
you're the one saying that time exists.
so, define what you think it is.
i am saying that it does not exist. that it is not real.
the only moment a person ever inhabits or experiences is the moment of now.
you can't visit the past. you can't visit the future. you can't visit the next hour, or the previous week. there is only ever this moment of now that exists as real.
you're the one saying that time exists.
so, define what you think it is.
I did earlier. I said time is just movement.
Quote:
i am saying that it does not exist.
the only moment a person ever inhabits or experiences is the moment of now.
you can't visit the past. you can't visit the future. you can't visit the next hour, or the previous week. there is only ever this moment of now that exists as real.
In that sense, I'll agree that time doesn't exist. I agree with your description of how things work, too. I don't know how going back in time could be possible, unless we were able to somehow rewind the movement of the universe.
There was no way for me to tell that you saw things that way from your mere claim that "time doesn't exist" though.
That's why I like to avoid many semantics-centered arguments...or just ask the other person how they define things, rather than argue over proper definitions. It often seems quicker than arguing over definitions to me.
I assume by this sentence that you accept nature as a label for ineffable source of existence, and since you have simultaneously broached the subject of labels, you would have no problem accepting nature as a label that would apply to your beliefs regarding the ineffability of existence.
Which of course would make you a Pagan...
Paganism: A modern religious movement incorporating beliefs or practices from outside the main world religions, especially nature worship.
The label Nature would only apply to the generic EXISTENCE of the ineffable source of existence and those who use it or prefer it would be Pagans. But those of us who use the label God have many different concepts and contexts that define our God. Mine would be Christian as I define it, NOT as it is traditionally conceived.
I did earlier. I said time is just movement. In that sense, I'll agree that time doesn't exist. I agree with your description of how things work, too. I don't know how going back in time could be possible, unless we were able to somehow rewind the movement of the universe.
Everything that moves...everything that vibrates or changes. All change is movement. Therefore, time is movement. Cooling and heating is movement. Decay is movement.
Everything that moves...everything that vibrates or changes. All change is movement. Therefore, time is movement. Cooling and heating is movement. Decay is movement.
huh?
movement is something we can do. a person walks. a top spins. a glass breaks.
we can see those. we can do those. we can observe those.
huh?
movement is something we can do. a person walks. a top spins. a glass breaks.
we can see those. we can do those. we can observe those.
time is not something a person can see or do.
Without movement...could we say time passes? No, we could not. Everything would be frozen in place. Nothing would cool down. Nothing would heat up. Nothing would change. Time is simply how we describe the changes we see. Changes don't happen without movement. Therefore, time is movement. We could stop time by freezing all movement. We could speed up time by speeding up all movement.
Time does not exist...unless we describe its existence as movement.
Without movement...could we say time passes? No, we could not. Everything would be frozen in place. Nothing would cool down. Nothing would heat up. Nothing would change. Time is simply how we describe the changes we see. Changes don't happen without movement. Therefore, time is movement. We could stop time by freezing all movement. We could speed up time by speeding up all movement.
describing changes to water, such as ice, cloud, mist, rain, fog, slush, snow, are describing the water.
they are not describing time. hot, cold, frozen, wet describe how the water feels. they are not describing time.
when a person is dead, they stop moving, there is no movement. so you are saying time stops. however the person next to them in the very same room is alive and moving. they are running really fast around and around the room. so you are saying time is speeding up. how can time be both stopped and speeding up in the very same room? whether something is moving or not, is not time.
describing changes to water, such as ice, cloud, mist, rain, fog, slush, snow, are describing the water.
they are not describing time. hot, cold, frozen, wet describe how the water feels. they are not describing time.
when a person is dead, they stop moving, there is no movement. so you are saying time stops. however the person next to them in the very same room is alive and moving. they are running really fast around and around the room. so you are saying time is speeding up. how can time be both stopped and speeding up in the very same room? whether something is moving or not, is not time.
There is LOTS of movement when a person is dead. See my previous comment about decay being movement.
The very solid object I'm typing on right now is moving, even it appears perfectly still. Every molecule or atom with a temperature above absolute zero is vibrating.
Water heats when heat, otherwise known as thermal energy, moves within it. Water cools when heat leaves it.
Regarding the running around the room...well...there are time dilations that occur when things begin moving extremely quickly, or when affected by gravity. I could travel at ultra high speeds, just short of light speed, and as a result I'd have aged for less time than my peers back on Earth. That wasn't what I was thinking about though. By speeding up time, I was thinking more along the lines of speeding up all movement in the universe...not just in one area. By stopping time, I was thinking of stopping all movement in the universe, not just in one area.
There is LOTS of movement when a person is dead. See my previous comment about decay being movement.
The very solid object I'm typing on right now is moving, even it appears perfectly still. Every molecule or atom with a temperature above absolute zero is vibrating.
Water heats when heat, otherwise known as thermal energy, moves within it. Water cools when heat leaves it.
Regarding the running around the room...well...there are time dilations that occur when things begin moving extremely quickly, or when affected by gravity. I could travel at ultra high speeds, just short of light speed, and as a result I'd have aged for less time than my peers back on Earth. That wasn't what I was thinking about though. By speeding up time, I was thinking more along the lines of speeding up all movement in the universe...not just in one area. By stopping time, I was thinking of stopping all movement in the universe, not just in one area.
none of that is time. movement is not time, it is movement, it is activity. and it always occurs only in this moment of now.
if time exists and is real, then surely there is a simple reasonable logical definition. the basic dictionary definition (which does not even resemble the post above) is this: "the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole. "travel through space and time". a point of time as measured in hours and minutes past midnight or noon."
whatever labels or names or measures are used (hours, minutes, midnight, noon, past, future) there is only this moment of now. that never changes. now never goes away. or changes. if you travel, it is still now. if you decay it is still now. no matter where you go or when you go it is still now.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 06-29-2021 at 08:48 PM..
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