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I think you have to consider Arach's post on a broader and less formal scale, like an Atheist/Agnostic version of "Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy". Blending empirical observation/evidence with the unseen/unknown to better come to terms with the spiritual. One could view the method along the lines of "yin and yang" in eastern thought/philosophy, tree branches not being able to exist without the negative space or void around them.
All of one or the other would either be all negative space (nothingness) or solid tree wood everywhere with no void/empty space. Could one even imagine the latter...
I am not even that broad.
I only really look at claims in terms of a mechanism, repeatable predictions, and how consistent with observations they are.
claims that have them are more reliable than those that don;t.
But, I will say, why is there a need to avoid discussing how we describe the system around us? Staring off with the best descriptors we have to form a belief is welcome by most atheist. what about avoiding that is spiritual?
I follow the rules. If you want me to discuss what I use to support my claims I will need immunity to do so.
But you will be required to more than "I don't believe you". I can go to a theist site for that.
Look this is a waste of my time.
Me: Give me a detailed and specific breakdown of your claims, and I will give a detailed response
You: I can't on this forum, it is against the rules.
Me: Well then I have a solution - let's discuss it on the science forum
You: No I won't
I'll happily discuss it with you in detail wherever in whichever forum allows the discussion to happen.
This thread, which I started, is not about science. I think a couple of you need to go back and reread the OP to see what the thread is actually about (don't be misled just because the word "science" may be in the OP...science is not the topic).
Me: Give me a detailed and specific breakdown of your claims, and I will give a detailed response
You: I can't on this forum, it is against the rules.
Me: Well then I have a solution - let's discuss it on the science forum
You: No I won't
I'll happily discuss it with you in detail wherever in whichever forum allows the discussion to happen.
yes ... I have demonstrated my point using you.
I have offered you opportunity to show if you really are interested in how a belief can be supported by evidence.
You avoided it. I just do not know if its intentional or you are just can't.
Telling me to go somewhere else to talk about what I believe in is not a solution. Its a cop out. I know what they they say about my belief. You do not. That in of itself tells me a lot.
That fact that you do not want to even try and learn about it tells me what exactly?
This thread, which I started, is not about science. I think a couple of you need to go back and reread the OP to see what the thread is actually about (don't be misled just because the word "science" may be in the OP...science is not the topic).
yadda yadda yadda ...
lay out a specifically worded thread title ... to promote attack religion. And keep everybody to the literal title.
Religionist thinking at its best. Sounds exactly like a bible thumper to me.
atheist thought is using evidence, commonsense, and reason to form a belief. Atheist thought is not limiting all discussions to fight religion, no deity, and we don't have to say anything only. Atheism is better than that.
Last edited by Arach Angle; 07-02-2021 at 06:39 PM..
I have offered you opportunity to show if you really are interested in how a belief can be supported by evidence.
You avoided it. I just do not know if its intentional or you are just can't.
Telling me to go somewhere else to talk about what I believe in is not a solution. Its a cop out. I know what they they say about my belief. You do not. That in of itself tells me a lot.
That fact that you do not want to even try and learn about it tells me what exactly?
Are you too lacking in reading comprehension?
I did not avoid it. I asked you to write out your claim in detail and with specifics, and then promised to reply in detail with specifics. That is the opposite of avoiding it.
You refuse - because you say that you can't because of rules in this forum.
I suggest the science forum.
You refuse (who knows for what reason - maybe you know your ideas don't hold up to science scrutiny?).
I say I'll discuss it in any forum you want - as long as you give me your views in detail and specifically.
You refuse.
I think I'll leave it to other reader to make up their own mind who is trying to have a detailed discussion, and who is refusing a discussion. Just for those who struggle with reading comprehension:
I will happily have a detailed discussion if you give me your views specifically and in detail. I'm happy to do so anywhere you choose.
lay out a specifically worded thread title ... to promote attack religion. And keep everybody to the literal title.
Religionist thinking at its best. Sounds exactly like a bible thumper to me.
atheist thought is using evidence, commonsense, and reason to form a belief. Atheist thought is not limiting all discussions to fight religion, no deity, and we don't have to say anything only. Atheism is better than that.
I wen back and reread the Opening Post. It is not attacking religion. Find another dead horse to beat on.
I did not avoid it. I asked you to write out your claim in detail and with specifics, and then promised to reply in detail with specifics. That is the opposite of avoiding it.
You refuse - because you say that you can't because of rules in this forum.
I suggest the science forum.
You refuse (who knows for what reason - maybe you know your ideas don't hold up to science scrutiny?).
I say I'll discuss it in any forum you want - as long as you give me your views in detail and specifically.
You refuse.
I think I'll leave it to other reader to make up their own mind who is trying to have a detailed discussion, and who is refusing a discussion. Just for those who struggle with reading comprehension:
I will happily have a detailed discussion if you give me your views specifically and in detail. I'm happy to do so anywhere you choose.
You and I both know, at this point, it is over pete. I proved my point.
Extraordinary steps are taken to avoid a spiritual belief that have some merit in a forum about said beliefs.
The real question is why avoid it?
Why lie and say I refuse when I clearly did not refuse.
why tell people to go somewhere for a belief (directly related to spirituality) when we are in a belief forum about spirituality
Why try and insult me when I didn't try to insult you at all. At first. But now I see you do not care about actual beliefs.
To me, atheism is strong enough to stand on its own legs out in the open. Using all data. Atheist that cower down to militants are just as culpable as theist that "just get out of the way" of their fundy theist. Far to many incent people are hurt.
Yes, you have to avoid the actual claim and its evidence in this forum. So when you say "I will believe when I see evidence", know that you selectively choose what beliefs based on something other than just seeing if the claim is consistent with observation.
Last edited by Arach Angle; 07-03-2021 at 04:39 AM..
I wen back and reread the Opening Post. It is not attacking religion. Find another dead horse to beat on.
sir, the first post is just that, sir. Its about "them" ... not atheism.
Speaking of a dead horse. You went ghost on me again. As you usually do. You know, addressing how my belief is directly related to this forum. But your belief is that type don't get us anywhere. What type is that? A belief that has evidence.
Where is this place you feel we are not getting?
What is the extent of atheist thought about taking on claims with evidence? Atheist thought is that we can only address some spiritual claims? That some are off limits?
why is that?
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