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except yeah, that's exactly what it just is. not believing in gods.
in its entirety. nothing else. zero. zip. nada.
anything else (flatulence, guitars, the universe, politics, government, evidence, schools, laws) is extraneous to atheism.
those are personal opinions, personal reasons, personal commentary yes.
but they are extraneous to atheism. they are not inherent to atheism.
atheism is a lack of belief. period. full stop.
it's not rocket science. literally and metaphorically.
Then you have the same problem for religion, as evidence is extraneous to every religion because it is not inherent to every religion. Religion, just believing in gods. That is it. In its entirety. Nothing else. Zero. Zip. Nada.
But do you think we simply do not believe? I do not believe in gods, flying saucers or Yetis because of the evidence, and I can argue for atheism because of the evidence.
Most beliefs are based on evidence, whether that evidence is credible or not.
You can try and dismiss atheism, but the same argument you use also dismisses every religion in the world. And if you claim you believe your religion because of the evidence, that is also true for atheism, we do not believe because of the evidence (whether that evidence is subconscious or not).
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except yeah, that's exactly what it just is. not believing in gods.
in its entirety. nothing else. zero. zip. nada.
anything else added on (flatulence, guitars, the universe, politics, government, evidence, schools, laws, viruses, lunar eclipse, biology, mathematics) is extraneous to atheism. those are personal opinions, personal reasons, personal commentary yes. but they are unrelated to atheism. they are not inherent to atheism.
atheism is a lack of belief. period. full stop.
it's not rocket science. both literally and metaphorically.
Very little that a person thinks stands totally alone. It's a web. Just not cobwebs that lead to the "cuz i said so" mode of thinking, as in your case.
just as a person has reasons for believing.
therefore their reasons for believing are also considered "evidence for why they believe."
Evidence must be authenticated, validated and evaluated using objective criteria.
A lot of unanswered prayers during the STUPID-19 debacle.
The vast majority went unanswered, but then we already knew that because few prayers actually do, and even the ones that "do" have more plausible explanations than a god-thing.
Objectively, the weight of that evidence alone in the least proves no god-things exist and at most prove a callously cruel god unworthy of adulation or even trust.
A weakling god-thing that is powerless to heal amputees is soooo uninspiring and unimpressive.
Where's your evidence for all those people in Heaven? You got none. You have no idea where Heaven is.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
"personal reasons for not believing" carry the same weight, value, and importance as "personal reasons for believing."
Well, no. I have no beliefs, only objective evidence against the existence of a god-thing and all the nonsense that accompanies it.
Then you have the same problem for religion, as evidence is extraneous to every religion because it is not inherent to every religion. Religion, just believing in gods. That is it. In its entirety. Nothing else. Zero. Zip. Nada.
But do you think we simply do not believe? I do not believe in gods, flying saucers or Yetis because of the evidence, and I can argue for atheism because of the evidence. Most beliefs are based on evidence, whether that evidence is credible or not. You can try and dismiss atheism, but the same argument you use also dismisses every religion in the world. And if you claim you believe your religion because of the evidence, that is also true for atheism, we do not believe because of the evidence (whether that evidence is subconscious or not).
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then you don't know very much about religion.
Phet can have a chat with you about Buddhism, for instance.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
I'm not perfect. I bristle a bit when someone here attacks Buddhism. But my typical response is one of two things: "I don't think you understand Buddhism" and/or, "Then don't become Buddhist". I don't understand the martyr complex that many god-ists have. If they're confident that the most powerful being in the history of the universe is on their side, if they're confident that their master-creator is on their side, if they're confident that their god is "all knowing and all powerful", why do they appear to be so afraid of words?
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 07-04-2021 at 03:12 PM..
Evidence must be authenticated, validated and evaluated using objective criteria. A lot of unanswered prayers during the STUPID-19 debacle.The vast majority went unanswered, but then we already knew that because few prayers actually do, and even the ones that "do" have more plausible explanations than a god-thing.Objectively, the weight of that evidence alone in the least proves no god-things exist and at most prove a callously cruel god unworthy of adulation or even trust.A weakling god-thing that is powerless to heal amputees is soooo uninspiring and unimpressive. Where's your evidence for all those people in Heaven? You got none. You have no idea where Heaven is. Well, no. I have no beliefs, only objective evidence against the existence of a god-thing and all the nonsense that accompanies it.
belief in God
lack of belief in God.
personal reasons for belief.
personal reasons for lack of belief.
although thank you for the good laugh, conflating "objective criteria" with (your words here): flatulence, guitars, stupid, cruel, adulation, unworthy, weakling, powerless, amputees, callous, unimpressive, and debacle.
certainly a person is free to rant and spew colorful prose, and online forums are rife with it. your posts are entertaining and i sincerely thank you for that.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 07-04-2021 at 03:20 PM..
because promoting, condoning, and inciting attack is diametrically opposed to and is the antithesis of "do no harm."
No, wrong. Harm is, since time immemorial, physical or economic harm.
We don't physically harm others, like burning 8+Million women at the stake for being "witches" even more so since there's no such thing as witches or witchcraft.
We don't issue Writs de Heretico Comburendo and burn people to death for not believing exactly as you want them to believe.
We don't murder 42,000 innocent people in a single day just because they had a slightly different belief.
We don't hale people before an ecclesiastical court and seize their property because they refused to tithe the church, which happened in America before the 14th Amendment was passed.
Religion is nothing but violence and confiscation. It does nothing but harm. It has never done anything but harm.
The only reason you're still around is because you have the tacit consent and support of government.
Once that falls away, it's over.
You need only look at history. Every religion not actively or passively backed by government ceased to be.
Once the US government washes its hands of the whole thing, it'll be 2-4 generations and religion will be gone.
The fundies know that, which is why they're pushing back so hard, because they're desperate.
And, you need only look at US history over the last 80 years.
Once government stops compelling and coercing people, and people have freedom of choice, they choose no religion.
Sadly, I won't be here to see it, but I have high hopes they'll find the E and J texts, because that will be the death blow for horrid Judeao-x-tian nonsense and their bastard god-thing.
The problem I encounter in many of these debates is that theists trying to argue that a god is real start from a basis that spirituality is also real. The fatal flaw is glossing over the very significant point that spirituality isn't agreed upon and beliefs have no value in a proof.
The universe around me is a series of formulae and equations. Our body of knowledge can be re-tested, calculated, and independently verified by anyone who wants to. I don't have to believe that there'll be another lunar eclipse -- I can do the calculations myself and determine, to the minute, where a lunar eclipse that won't happen for another 70 years will happen. The planet Neptune was officially discovered mathematically before someone actually saw it in a telescope and recognized it for what it was. Feelings are electrochemical responses to stimuli, though the specifics of which we do not fully understand as of yet (but probably will in the future). I can't see, measure, or calculate if I have a "soul" or what that "soul" does, so it doesn't exist until I can do those things. It's no more than a philosophical explanation to close a gap in our knowledge.
Circling back to the source then, if you want to talk about beliefs and spirituality, present them in a way that's mathematically provable. I want algorithms and numbers I can verify on paper myself, without having to rely on any assumptions that themselves aren't verifiable on paper, to show that the core tenets of spirituality are true. Explain spirituality to me in a non-spiritual way and we can have a lot of open and honest discussion.
Yeah. Often some theists will counter that there are things beyond what we have detected or measured today. Which is fine, but then the person forwarding a new claim has the onus to give a methodology with which to convince us that their new claim is anything other than fanciful thinking.
I have seen a few too many people using this faulty logic.
1) It is possible that there are things beyond our current knowledge and measurement ability.
2) It is possible that evidence in that God exists lies in this area beyond our knowledge
3) It cannot be disproved that what lies beyond our current knowledge and measurement ability is God
4) Hence it is reasonable to believe God exists
Steps 1-3 are possible, sure.
The problem is there is one almighty jump between steps 3 and 4, that has no justification. There are an infinite number of different things that can be imagined that may be possible. Just a short list of such possibilities:
-Bigfoot is real
-6 Dimensional angels are real
-Ghosts are real
-UFOs are aliens
-Wind is generated by invisible farting dogs that inhibit the Peter600 field. The Peter600 field is yet to be detected by humans
-Angry fishermen in the undiscovered 9th dimension that control emotions using 8 dimensional fishing rods that are undetectable by us
-Beneath the lowest level understanding of physics lies a computer simulation. Our universe is actually a simulation by a bored teenager in another universe
-Reality is God
-Reality is simply the manifestation of randomness
-I am the only conscience in the universe. Everybody and everything else is just a figment of my imagination. Hence I am God.
-etc
This list is infinite. I have a finite brain so can't have assumptions and beliefs about everything on that list. The default position is to have no belief at all on the matter, either way.
Now if someone makes a claim out of that infinite list, it is up to them to give me a reason to believe that claim. The onus is entirely on the person making the claim to give reasons - specific and detailed reasons.
personal reasons for belief.
personal reasons for lack of belief.
although thank you for the good laugh, conflating "objective criteria" with (your words here): flatulence, guitars, stupid, cruel, adulation, unworthy, weakling, powerless, amputees, callous, unimpressive, and debacle.
certainly a person is free to rant and spew colorful prose, and online forums are rife with it. your posts are entertaining and i sincerely thank you for that.
Building an argument from different posts to make something no one said is a straw man. The question is, is your inability to make rational arguments natural or deliberate?
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