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THIS is why I am anti-theist. Why should a Muslim or Hindu or ... Buddhist, cb2008, have to sit there and stare at commandments that orders "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" - the Christian God. Yahweh. Not Allah. Not Lord Shiva. Not Ganesh. Not Buddha. Not any other god. Nope. Not to mention that 6 out of 10 of those commandments are specific to the Hebrew religion and no other.
Never mind that plastering Christianity all over the place is a direct violation of the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment to the United States Constitution. People, unfortunately, will dismiss it as unimportant - a minor violation not worth anyone's time. Of course, if they should pass that bill, there will be another. And another. And another. Until you can't tell the difference between a private religious school and a public school. Those of other religions will be ostracized and culturally isolated.
I'm here to tell you - if a tiny fraction of the Muslim population can disrupt the entire world over and over with international terrorism - not to mention, treating it's own adherants like garbage (especially women) - it will only take a tiny fraction of Christians to do the same here.
I don't know, I don't have much faith in anything you write about religion, politics, nations, or people. I just have this feeling you don't know what you are talking about most of the time even though you write walls of them . Take this for instance:
Well, I just happen to be an historian and WWII just happens to also be my area of expertise. And I can tell you from first hand interviews of WWII combat vets that a lot of soldiers went into the war a believer and came out of it an atheist. Especially those who liberated the Nazi camps.
...
Israel, for instance, is one of the most secular nations on earth where atheism is deeply entrenched into their society - and a lot of that comes from the Holocaust. They are cultural Jews, but not religious Jews. Because the Holocaust survivors had a difficult time rectifying the presence of a God who would allow them to suffer so horribly.
So ... yeah ... the "no atheists in foxholes" is a cutesy little meme, but there is no truth to it. Don't believe everything you see on a bumper sticker.
Israel the most secular what again? Do you have any idea what is happening there right now?
I think keeping these conversations open is really important. It's the only way we get to understand each other. Amongst all the argy-bargy it does actually make a difference and it's important to talk.
The only problem with that concept is that sometimes the more these conversations go on, the more they reinforce negative perceptions about certain people or types of people. I am FAR more negative today about religion than I was when I first started coming to this forum.
To complicate matters, many people don't even know what fascism actually is.
LOL! You're so right.
Which is why the GOP and their ultra-religious allies used to put up billboards in 2008 that showed Obama along with Hitler and Stalin - together. A-haha - it is to laugh. Morons.
It really ticks me off - the propaganda is bad enough. The fact that they have to be so stupid about it just makes it worse.
Those same GOP/Christian extremist goons try to convince everyone that fascism and communism as well as socialism are all on the same extreme left side of the political spectrum. And not believing in God is so un-American!!!
Come to think of it - I have no idea what they think is on the extreme right side of the political spectrum - aside from most of the Christians currently sitting on the right side of the Congressional aisle. I guess they probably think unfettered capitalism where the free market decides everything, with no regulations at all, a libertarian's wet dream ... maybe? I don't know. But of course they try to show how everything bad is on the left - because they truly believe that the political left - where most atheists reside - is perfectly imperfect while the political right - where nearly all religious extremists reside - is perfectly perfect.
The only problem with that concept is that sometimes the more these conversations go on, the more they reinforce negative perceptions about certain people or types of people. I am FAR more negative today about religion than I was when I first started coming to this forum.
Interesting. I'm somewhat the opposite. I understand people better than I did before. While I will never fully understand how people believe, I at least understand them better as people.
Israel the most secular what again? Do you have any idea what is happening there right now?
The right wing extremists of Israel are theocratic, but most of the mainstream and society is secular. The religious aspects of that state are where the problems are with it. But, it's mostly a secular democracy, with lots of shopping malls and modern life and capitalism and all of that.
Most Jewish people (anywhere) are not fundamentalist, and many, probably most Israelis are not religious.
Unlike the Palestinians that they're at constant war with, they don't suicide blow themselves up, or use their family as human shields. They don't wish 'Death to all Palestinians'. (We know this, because they have enough firepower to wipe out the whole Muslim world, and they choose not to use it.) Whereas the Islam people on the other side, would destroy Israel tomorrow if they could, and turn everything into a Muslim theocracy with little civil freedoms.
The right wing extremists of Israel are theocratic, but most of the mainstream and society is secular. The religious aspects of that state are where the problems are with it. But, it's mostly a secular democracy, with lots of shopping malls and modern life and capitalism and all of that.
Most Jewish people (anywhere) are not fundamentalist, and many, probably most Israelis are not religious.
Unlike the Palestinians that they're at constant war with, they don't suicide blow themselves up, or use their family as human shields. They don't wish 'Death to all Palestinians'. (We know this, because they have enough firepower to wipe out the whole Muslim world, and they choose not to use it.) Whereas the Islam people on the other side, would destroy Israel tomorrow if they could, and turn everything into a Muslim theocracy with little civil freedoms.
Israel is a Jewish state. The state privileges Judaism which is a religion. What part of this do you not understand??
Israel is a Jewish state. The state privileges Judaism which is a religion. What part of this do you not understand??
Israel is a Jewish state in both the ethnic and religious sense, the unabashedly secular clinging to the former and the fervently religious flocking toward the latter. In that regard, there are really two Israels, and the current state of civil unrest should make that very clear. While not all Israeli right-wingers are religious (Netanyahu is also unabashedly secular), there is generally a strong correlation between religiosity and right-wing politics. Who lives in the Jewish settlements in the Israeli-occupied areas of the West Bank? Hint: it’s not folks who eat pork in Tel Aviv on Friday after sundown.
Israel is a Jewish state in both the ethnic and religious sense, the unabashedly secular clinging to the former and the fervently religious flocking toward the latter. In that regard, there are really two Israels, and the current state of civil unrest should make that very clear. While not all Israeli right-wingers are religious (Netanyahu is also unabashedly secular), there is generally a strong connotation between religiosity and right-wing politics. Who lives in the Jewish settlements in the Israeli-occupied areas of the West Bank? Hint: it’s not folks who eat pork in Tel Aviv on Friday after sundown.
It is nice that one can view the Jewish state of Israel, that openly states and does privilege Judaism, which has overwhelmingly elected a right wing leader, repeatedly, a leader who has sworn he will continue to build settlements over illegal territories and does not care about the World's protest, with all these nuances. Perhaps you are quite capable of using the same nuances and symapthies when judging other nations and its people as well.
Israel does not have a constitution, which is strange for a modern political state. Israel instead establishes constitutional-type laws when it feels this level of law is needed. These laws are almost impossible to repeal once they are enacted because they are not treated as generic laws. The most recent and most important of these laws, The Nation-State of the Jewish People, passed in 2018. It pretty much formally identifies Israel as a Jewish country, because it put into law how people are to be treated in Israel based on their religion.
I am glad I live in the United States with freedom to practice my religion guaranteed by the constitution.
Quote:
The existence of the Ministry of Religious Services proves that Israel is not truly secular, even though the government swears up and down that it is. Israel has a parallel set of laws that govern the behavior of Jewish citizens, that does not govern others. Israel is not secular for Jews; laws exist based on the Talmud and the Halakhah that govern the everyday life of a Jew. These laws ensure adherence to the Jewish faith. Jews follow them loosely or strictly; however, all are under obligation to follow these religious laws. Conflict can arise between the secular law and the religious law. The judicial system can step in when conflict occurs.
I can only imagine American Atheists loving it if the US has one of those Ministry of Religious Services.
“Israel’s Basic Laws, which have constitutional status in the absence of a full constitution, re-enforce that the state is Jewish, rather than belonging to all its citizens. The Basic Law: The Knesset—1958, for example, declares that no candidate can run for the Knesset if they expressly or implicitly endorse “negation of the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.”[81] The Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty sets out its purpose as to “establish… the values of the state of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.”” – Human Rights Watch
It is nice that one can view the Jewish state of Israel, that openly states and does privilege Judaism, which has overwhelmingly elected a right wing leader, repeatedly, a leader who has sworn he will continue to build settlements over illegal territories and does not care about the World's protest, with all these nuances. Perhaps you are quite capable of using the same nuances and symapthies when judging other nations and its people as well.
Do you back-handedly label my post as “nuanced” because you’re upset I know far more about Israel than you? Because if you had actually read what I typed, you would have realized that I do not endorse and in fact am intensely critical of Israel’s right-wing elements and ongoing occupation of the West Bank. Netanyahu and his secular right ilk are fascists who form alliances of convenience with the religious right because they’re also anti-Arab racists. I know that might upset you because you happen to feel the same way, but you’ll just have to find some other way to demonize me.
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