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I don't need god to find meaning or purpose in life. I think we can find our own purpose independent of any deity who really hasn't explicitly made it's presence known to us. Sure I see beauty all around me on this planet and in the cosmos. I can have a feeling that this beauty and the love that we can all aspire to reach has a wondrous inspiration to it, but it does not have to be confirmed as being intelligently inspired. Whether there is a god or not we all have a choice about what purpose to our life there is in our limited time on this planet. Instead of worrying so much about it - is god the creator of this fine tuned universe or are there just so many universes that we are the lucky one's here by chance, I think we should focus on making the most of our life here. Enjoy breathing, falling in love, seeing the beauty of nature, laughing at corny jokes. All that has meaning so let's appreciate it regardless of whether there is a man in the sky or not.
Was curious to see when you'd pop-up, thrillo. I've read your posts. When it comes to the atheist spectrum from 1-10....1 being "I am an atheist and I am open a deity existing but there's no evidence" to 10 being "THERE IS NO GOD!", you're a solid 10.
I don't know how you view life or what your background is. I know in one of your posts, you make the claim that you were a Christian for 60+ years so I assume you are older and wiser than most of us. I'm not sure if you read something and something "clicked" and you suddenly had this extreme hatred towards God and one day you said "**** all of this religious bull****. I'm an atheist now!"
Here is my counter argument for you:
God does not control where we are born or how we are born. We can be born as slaves and live a ****ty childhood and fight our way out. I've seen a lot of atheists use that argument: "why did God do this to innocent children?" I know many Christians do that.....they use God in their claims. eg: "thank God I was born into a good family" or "thank God I was able to fight my way out of poverty". Evil and good exists in this world. That's the reality of it. Poverty exists in this world. Child molesters also exist in this world.
Again, I do not define God as a human being or a magical genie that "does things". It seems like that is how you define God. I know many (not all) Christians define God in this way as well. Evil exists in this world. I know many atheists use the argument "why would a God allow evil to exist????"
Unfortunately, I would have to disagree with you. And don't you dare turn this thread into one of your "GOD DOES NOT EXIST!!!" threads. Evil exists in this world. If you suffered in life, I give you my sympathies. If you witnessed suffering, I'm sorry that you had to witness it. "the rich get the pleasure, we get the bones" yea, that's bull****. I'm not rich and I know many people in their 60s who are also not rich but they are living a good life.
I'll clarify something: I don't "hate" God because I don't believe a God exists. I buy the argument from scientists that the world operates completely fine (as best it can) with no God intervening. Now IF I believed a God did exist and the world was as it is then yes, I'd hate that God with a fervent passion.
My atheism grew from a fundamentalist to a deist to an agnostic deist to atheist. Along the way I uncovered more and more convincing evidence that the gospels Jesus was a fraud invented by clever churchmen to get their new religion off the ground. If Jesus is a phony then the Christian god is a phony. If anyone has studied the background behind Yahweh then they know that Yahweh originally was a pagan god borrowed by the Hebrews from the Canaanites. His previous association as a lackey god for El was wiped out in the Septuagint and then sanitized and made legitimate by the Christians.
But everybody knows that when you smear lipstick on a pig, underneath all that red lipstick there's still a pig lurking somewhere. So it is with Yahweh. So when I uncovered all this through sheer hard work studying the truth about Christianity it resolved me into atheism.
Now if you're going to argue that God has nothing to do with how we are born and under what circumstances we spend out lives--whether being a child in a poverty-stricken part of the world where s/he gets sold by the millions into slavery and abuse and torture and murder and hunger and starvation and death by disease and abuse, then sure I can buy into that. Whether God exists or not makes no difference to how our lives go. The losers and unfortunates who die before they are 5 are just part of a flawed system of evolution where the strongest, the fittest and the best-born survive and pass their genes on to their progeny while the rest are despoiled by existence and then die off.
Now regarding your, "I have it pretty good" here's a statistic to chew on:
"Is 80% of the world poor?
The latest global data tells us that 85% of the world population live on less than $30 per day. These are 6.5 billion people. Relying on a higher poverty line of $45 per day you find that 92% live in poverty, and using a lower poverty line of $20 per day you find that 78% live in poverty." Mar 5, 2021
So you may have it good but the vast majority of mankind does not.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 04-02-2023 at 01:52 PM..
I'll clarify something: I don't "hate" God because I don't believe a God exists. I buy the argument from scientists that the world operates completely fine (as best it can) with no God intervening. Now IF I believed a God did exist and the world was as it is then yes, I'd hate that God with a fervent passion.
My atheism grew from a fundamentalist to a deist to an agnostic deist to atheist. Along the way I uncovered more and more convincing evidence that the gospels Jesus was a fraud invented by clever churchmen to get their new religion off the ground. If Jesus is a phony then the Christian god is a phony. If anyone has studied the background behind Yahweh then they know that Yahweh originally was a pagan god borrowed by the Hebrews from the Canaanites. His previous association as a lackey god for El was wiped out in the Septuagint and then sanitized and made legitimate by the Christians.
But everybody knows that when you smear lipstick on a pig, underneath all that red lipstick there's still a pig lurking somewhere. So it is with Yahweh. So when I uncovered all this through sheer hard work studying the truth about Christianity it resolved me into atheism.
Now if you're going to argue that God has nothing to do with how we are born and under what circumstances we spend out lives--whether being a child in a poverty-stricken part of the world where s/he gets sold by the millions into slavery and abuse and torture and murder and hunger and starvation and death by disease and abuse, then sure I can buy into that. Whether God exists or not makes no difference to how our lives go. The losers and unfortunates who die before they are 5 are just part of a flawed system of evolution where the strongest, the fittest and the best-born survive and pass their genes on to their progeny while the rest are despoiled by existence and then die off.
Now regarding your, "I have it pretty good" here's a statistic to chew on:
"Is 80% of the world poor?
The latest global data tells us that 85% of the world population live on less than $30 per day. These are 6.5 billion people. Relying on a higher poverty line of $45 per day you find that 92% live in poverty, and using a lower poverty line of $20 per day you find that 78% live in poverty." Mar 5, 2021
So you may have it good but the vast majority of mankind does not.
I cannot comment on the first two paragraphs. Your interpretation on the "background of the Yahweh" is one of many. You've done your own research and come to your own conclusions which has apparently made you an atheist. I might read the same research you did plus some additional books and come to a different conclusion. Everytime you argue about God, all you do is make snide pompous comments. For someone who does not believe in God, you sure do have an emotional attachment to the idea that people believe in God. You utterly despise it.
I do not believe that God does anything, but I do believe in positive energy so I do find myself being incredibly thankful and appreciative whenever I succeed at anything. I've actually argued against Christians who act as though God is a real person who does stuff. I believe God is pure energy meaning God is everywhere.
Regarding your statistics, I'm not singling myself out. There are millions of people who live on poverty. Is that my fault? Is that God's fault? I say no to both questions. Yes, rich people exist and poor people also exist. I don't blame the rich people for anything. I'm in the middle class and I strive to be rich one day.
Whether God exists or not makes no difference to how our lives go. The losers and unfortunates who die before they are 5 are just part of a flawed system of evolution where the strongest, the fittest and the best-born survive and pass their genes on to their progeny while the rest are despoiled by existence and then die off.
True. But the people who have the ability to believe in “God” have a huge evolutionary advantage. Which implies that evolution created “God.”
Atheists like you and I will be ruthlessly and efficiently eliminated by evolution, while all the god-botherers will pass on their genes (and beliefs) to another generation. Eventually, humanity will be right back to where it was in the Middle Ages, with all knowledge of evolution destroyed or forgotten. Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.
I don't want any insults. No "life is BETTER without God. Christians are stupid!" remarks.
Very simple question: from your point of view, what do you think is the purpose of life? what is the purpose of our existence? what is the purpose of our universe?
obviously life can exist without the need for God (in your point of view) so I am curious how you view it.
First of all, I really wish people like you would stop characterizing we atheists as people who would be so crass as to simply blurt out, "Christians are stupid!" - which, by the way, I don't think anyone has ever said on this forum. At least not that I've seen. That doesn't mean, however, that we don't reserve the right to tear into Christianity if it answers the question. This is OUR little corner of the universe, after all. So on to the question.
The answer is simple: The purpose in life is whatever we wish it to be. Once one decides and ascertains their purpose, it is up to them to try and make that purpose a reality. All we can do is hope that a person's purpose is good and just and brings no one else harm.
To be quite blunt, though - what makes you think our existence must have a purpose? Why not simply enjoy the existence we have? Or perhaps one could say that their purpose is to enjoy existence as much as possible. But in reality, I know a lot of people simply can't wrap their minds around a purposeless existence.
Far too many people want their purpose handed to them by some outside agent - such as a god - instead of deciding their own purpose. Although I believe that most people do that anyway and simply pretend that a god gave them their purpose in order to justify it after-the-fact. Because - think about it: How many people do you think gave up a successful and lucrative career playing with money on the stock market because a god suddenly whispered into their ear, "Go to Central America and help build schools while you live in a tent and drink water that make your bowels squeeze shut like a vice!"
And so they give up everything. Uh, yeah. Probably not many. People tend to use god as a post hoc rationalization as to why they're doing what they're doing -- when in reality, they're doing their "thing" because that's what they had wanted to do in the first place. I don't believe for a nanosecond that many, if anyone, really sacrifices their lives to do something god told them to do. Their "purpose," as it were.
I know some might claim they have a "calling" to run off and do missionary work or some such - but again, is it really a calling? Or is missionary work merely what they had always wanted to do and god is a great way to justify it?
In any event, I personally don't give much thought to my "purpose." I'm not an object - a tool put here to perform a certain task. Nor am I a one-trick pony. I simply live my life. I try to enrich it as much as I can with things I enjoy - and stay away from the things that bring pain, sorrow, and fear. Other than that, why do I really care about a purpose? You only exist as long as someone else still alive remembers you. After that - you're gone from this earth forever. Might as well try to stack the deck in your favor as much as you can while you can ...
I will say this: For those who truly believe that God is their purpose or serving God is their purpose, I feel sorry for. I guess it's because I enjoy freedom. Religion is the antithesis of freedom. Besides, what does an all-powerful god truly need with a puny little mortal, hmm? What could you or I or anyone else do for god that god himself couldn't do - and do faster and better? The whole idea of "serving god" is rather ludicrous to me for that reason.
In fact, what could be your purpose in Heaven? A place that is said to be already perfect? After all, if everything is perfect, one would just stand around like a euphoric zombie because everything is already perfect. There's no need to move, sit, stand, scratch, blink, snort, or literally do anything at all.
Now - as for the purpose of the universe - well - my question is: Does it really need a purpose? It simply exists.
Of course, when I use the term "God," I'm talking about those people who anthropomorphize god into some kind of a "being." Which, sorry to say, is how the vast majority perceive god. In all honestly, I do get a little miffed at people who muddy the waters by calling a "spiritual force" a "god." Because, as I've said elsewhere, the term "god" has 6,000+ years of baggage that goes with it. Even the dictionary defines a "god" as a being, entity, or creature of some kind with it's own wants, will, and even personality.
The idea of our purpose being: "To give glory to god" is quite repugnant to me and I try to stay far away from that kind of thinking. This is where fanaticism comes into play - the group-think cult mentality. As I've said many times over the years: Religion is fine as long as people keep it to themselves. If they want to talk about what they believe in polite conversation, that's also fine. But the moment religion became organized and then decided: "Hey, we can reform the world in our image" yeah, that is when I take off the gloves.
True. But the people who have the ability to believe in “God” have a huge evolutionary advantage. Which implies that evolution created “God.”
Atheists like you and I will be ruthlessly and efficiently eliminated by evolution, while all the god-botherers will pass on their genes (and beliefs) to another generation. Eventually, humanity will be right back to where it was in the Middle Ages, with all knowledge of evolution destroyed or forgotten. Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.
I cannot comment on the first two paragraphs. Your interpretation on the "background of the Yahweh" is one of many. You've done your own research and come to your own conclusions which has apparently made you an atheist. I might read the same research you did plus some additional books and come to a different conclusion. Everytime you argue about God, all you do is make snide pompous comments. For someone who does not believe in God, you sure do have an emotional attachment to the idea that people believe in God. You utterly despise it.
I do not believe that God does anything, but I do believe in positive energy so I do find myself being incredibly thankful and appreciative whenever I succeed at anything. I've actually argued against Christians who act as though God is a real person who does stuff. I believe God is pure energy meaning God is everywhere.
Regarding your statistics, I'm not singling myself out. There are millions of people who live on poverty. Is that my fault? Is that God's fault? I say no to both questions. Yes, rich people exist and poor people also exist. I don't blame the rich people for anything. I'm in the middle class and I strive to be rich one day.
Actually, compwiz and I think I said this once before, you're an extremely intelligent person and because of that I enjoy exchanging with you You may find me snide and pompous but that is only because of my cocksure confidence in what I write. In another life I was a novelist and some of my books can still be found on Amazon and other outlets so I know how to write a good paragraph, in contrast to most Christians in R&R who wouldn't know a well-written paragraph if it came up and bit them. It took one fool over in R&R who I usually have on ignore to finally drive me out of there and come into the Atheism subforum where I can engage in some intelligent talk and escape his inanity (or insanity--take your pick) Pardon me while I
I just want to ask you one question, comp: have you ever caught me in a single lie? I could point out hundreds of lies Christians have made in defense of their religion, but as I once remarked in a thread, atheists don't have to lie--all they have to do is tell the truth about Christianity. When an atheist can tell the truth in a clever and convincing way it usually comes off as snide and pompous, that's the reality of the situation.
Quote:
Regarding your statistics, I'm not singling myself out. There are millions of people who live on poverty. Is that my fault? Is that God's fault?
Millions! You're going to compare millions to billions????? Now you're drifting into Mink territory, comp. Be careful. Don't be so black and white on this. Sure there are hundreds of millions of people who are neither rich or poor. But go with the statistic I quoted which is that statistically better than 90% of 8 BILLION people live in poverty. That's what you should be focused on. Is it God's fault? There IS no God who intervenes in human affairs, remember? So how can it be his fault? Is it man's fault? Nah! It's just how humanity evolved. There are winners and there are losers. There are the fortunate few and the vast unfortunate rest of us, some better off than others.
You know who's a perfect example of a winner to me?
Edwin Castro. No there's a 30 year old completely ordinary schlub working an ordinary job who achieved the near-impossible: he won the largest jackpot in history: 2 BILLION dollars on a single ticket he bought at his local gas station in Altadena Ca. Talk about a guy born under the luckiest star in the heavens. It one instant his life changed from ordinary to BILLIONAIRE extraordinaire. He wasted no time spending his largess. He went out and bought this 25 million dollar mansion in Hollywood Hills. Nice digs, huh?
If the Christian god is real then why didn't he allow a Christian missionary group to win it so they could spread Jesus' gospel around the world? How many souls could that group have led to Jesus with that kind of money? That this Christian god didn't pay the slightest bit of attention to Christians tells me all I need to know about him: he's imaginary. What won Castro that money? Sheer good fortune. Someone had to win eventually, that's what the odds say and the odds always win. That's life. No God, no afterlife, no nothing supernatural. We're born, we live, we suffer, we die and that's the end of it. That's the truth.
Essentially, "what is the purpose of life?" is the same as asking "why are we here?".
now that we are here, asking "what should we do now?" is a follow-up question. "why are we here in the first place?" is the question that should be asked before asking "what should we do now?"
the most common response in this thread is: we are here for no specific reason....we are just here. I have a hard time wrapping my head around that idea.
there is ALWAYS a reason for things to happen. things don't happen randomly. the core idea to atheism is: reason. things happen for a reason. science exists to prove things. we don't just say "that person's skin randomly became black and blue". there's a reason for it.
so going back to the original topic: what is the purpose of life? why do we exist? are we the result of evolution?
No.
There is always a CAUSE.
There is not always a REASON.
Those are two different things.
So yeah - if that straight-A student, captain of the football team, prom king, and class president gets creamed by a drunk driver - yes, there is a cause.
But to claim there is a "reason" is essentially saying there is a plan leading up to some ultimate goal. It's saying that this kid is killed because his death has some kind of higher purpose - which might give the bereaved some comfort - but there's no reason to believe it's true.
Sometimes things happen for no reason at all. Yes, there is always a cause. Yes, the driver who killed the poor kid was drunk. Perhaps the kid was also texting his girlfriend while driving and didn't see the drunk. Perhaps someone's brakes failed - or they hydroplaned on the wet road - or any number of nearly infinite variables.
But to say there is always a reason - nope. I don't believe we're simply pawns in someone else's plan. I don't believe that there is some kind of grand intellect running the show. Because then you COULD start asking those pesky questions about why bad things happen to good or innocent people. Because then there would be a REASON why one 10 year-old is naked in the mud and starving to death while another is living in a mansion with a room full of toys and throws away more food than he actually eats.
The moment we start claiming a reason for things, that's when we can start laying blame at the feet of whatever entity we think is running the show. A cause merely says that one kid was lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents in a 1st World country while the other -- was not. But not for any particular ... reason. It's not as if some higher authority pointed to one of these children and said, "You shall be rich and comfortable ... because only you can fulfill the destiny that awaits you!" As if he were a "chosen one" from some fantasy story.
If that's how you want to think of it. This is how I look at it: I can enjoy life, live it as long as I can, and make an impact on those around me. Or I can say "I'm just a speck in this universe.....screw life, I won't matter after I die". It's all about how you think.
It is possible to have meaning and purpose in life while you're on this earth even if you believe you are ultimately insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
You can hold both of these positions.
Play piano, go hunting, watch Netflix or do whatever it is you want to do.
You don't have to sit around and wallow in hopelessness just because humans may be extinct 20,000 centuries from now.
Actually, don't watch too much Netflix. Scratch that one.
True. But the people who have the ability to believe in “God” have a huge evolutionary advantage. Which implies that evolution created “God.”
Atheists like you and I will be ruthlessly and efficiently eliminated by evolution, while all the god-botherers will pass on their genes (and beliefs) to another generation. Eventually, humanity will be right back to where it was in the Middle Ages, with all knowledge of evolution destroyed or forgotten. Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.
Don't count atheism out too fast. As long as the Internet is around to educate people on just how phony the gospels Jesus is atheism will continue to flourish while Christianity continues to drop like a stone, at least in educated countries.
Gods evolved when ignorant cavemen needed them to explain the mysteries of this planet. Now that we know how the sun and lightning work, gods have outlived their usefulness. They are just a bad habit mankind is trying to break. If we get blown back to the Stone Age that will be a different story.
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