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Oh .. . but it does refer to that which is ascribed to something ineffable, inscrutable . . . "Nature" . . . that "just is" . . . pretty God-like to me.
There is more than one definition of the word "nature". The particular definition I was referring to is:
nature- the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character. [From dictionary.com]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
We definitely have the reasoning ability . . . but it is a meaningless one if there actually is no value to our existence . . . no purpose to our activities at all . . . which is the atheist view. It is also arbitrary in the extreme . . . as we each reason so uniquely.
I do not agree that there is no purpose to our activities. If that is the atheist view, then all atheists wouldn't be out learning, living, and loving life. I'm not speaking for all atheists here, but I personally believe that our purpose in life is to live and learn as much about life as we can in the process. If I didn't value my existence, then I probably would not be attempting to improve my mind and enjoying my time on Earth to the fullest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
There is no getting around the objective absolute . . . does it matter at all to the universe what we do? That is not a species-level question . . . and atheists answer in the negative . . . as does your natural law using human reasoning (species-level). So I beg to differ . . . I put no words in your mouth that were not implicit in your stated position.
Your question is illogical: Does it matter at all to the universe what we do? No, of course it doesn't matter what we do here on Earth on a universal scale. No matter what we do here on Earth, the universe will continue to function as it always has.
A better question would have been: Does it matter at all what we do in relationship to humanity? Absolutely.
I must disagree with you, once again. Advocating natural law does not implicate that we have no reason for our existence.
Your question is illogical: Does it matter at all to the universe what we do? No, of course it doesn't matter what we do here on Earth on a universal scale. No matter what we do here on Earth, the universe will continue to function as it always has.
A better question would have been: Does it matter at all what we do in relationship to humanity? Absolutely.
I must disagree with you, once again. Advocating natural law does not implicate that we have no reason for our existence.
Clearly you are locked in a species level understanding and are willing to accept a species determined raison d'etre. That is arbitrary and while it may serve to motivate your actions in life . . . it remains arbitrary and subject to disputation. Philosophically . . . it is illogical because the premise of reason or purpose cannot be attributed to the species itself. The concept of any subsequent or derivative purpose is completely negated.
Clearly you are locked in a species level understanding and are willing to accept a species determined raison d'etre. That is arbitrary and while it may serve to motivate your actions in life . . . it remains arbitrary and subject to disputation. Philosophically . . . it is illogical because the premise of reason or purpose cannot be attributed to the species itself. The concept of any subsequent or derivative purpose is completely negated.
From a philosophical standpoint, you could claim that several ideas are subject to disputation. That's a given. If we want to get into a philosophical argument on this, we could be here for years.
Reason can certainly be attributed our species. Do you disagree that humans have the ability to reason?
How is the concept of purpose negated because of this?
From a philosophical standpoint, you could claim that several ideas are subject to disputation. That's a given. If we want to get into a philosophical argument on this, we could be here for years.
Reason can certainly be attributed our species. Do you disagree that humans have the ability to reason?
How is the concept of purpose negated because of this?
Reason is not at issue . . . purpose is. A species with no purpose cannot reasonably be said to have "reasoned" a purpose and have that be meaningful in any absolute sense. From what premise would such logic or reason proceed?
Reason is not at issue . . . purpose is. A species with no purpose cannot reasonably be said to have "reasoned" a purpose and have that be meaningful in any absolute sense. From what premise would such logic or reason proceed?
Ah, but you must keep in mind that I never claimed that we have no purpose.
I'm willing to bet that "morals" always existed...and that religion just kind of organized them and then imposed them on the nearest susceptible population by threatening punishment for disobedience.
That being said, I do believe in god, but I don't think you need religion to make you a good person. Seems to make a lot of bad people, too...
I like arod's comment.
I don't think that religion makes a person bad. Rather I think that everyone in our country is exposed to religion and religious values. Even an evil person has heard of the ten comandments.
I agree that morality must have always existed but even the Neanderthal and Cro-Magnum men had a belief in an afterlife. Maybe religion always existed too.
How do you answer when "believers" claim that if you are an Athiest, then you have no foundation for moral behavior. They have the Bible, Torah, Koran, etc., and say that if we do not believe in Something, then we CANNOT have moral guidelines for behavior. This makes us immoral in their way of looking at it.
I was raised to act humane, and courteous. I was taught this as a societial norm. I don't need a book to tell me how to behave, I just watch good examples of my fellow human beings, and them incorporate their good examples into my behavior.
Why do theists think this way? As far as I can see, history has proven time and again that more death, destruction, and all around barbaric behavior has been done to mankind by Theists, that ever were done by Athiest. Just WHAT is this "morality" they speak of. Surely it is NOT a concept which Theists have mastered, as yet.
What is your moral foundation? If you consider anything to be right or wrong, what basis is it on?
What the person is essentially saying is that they don't know the difference between right and wrong, they're just following a list of 'morals' because they want to be rewarded and escape punishment, although a moral act done with the intent of reward is a moral act morally worthless. Their sytem of 'morality' is rather infantile and analogous to that of a parent that tells their child to 'do what I say or I'll hit you.' It doesn't actually teach them right or wrong, it teaches them to only do something in order to avoid punishment.
Isn't that what laws are? Drive too fast and you get a ticket. Rob someone and you go to jail. If you read most religious books you see that the idea is to ingrain a sense of good and decency in all mankind. Of course not all people read the Bible or Torah. Society is trying to replace religious values with secular ones. I don't know how that will work or if it will improve or hurt our country in the long run.
Isn't that what laws are? Drive too fast and you get a ticket. Rob someone and you go to jail. If you read most religious books you see that the idea is to ingrain a sense of good and decency in all mankind. Of course not all people read the Bible or Torah. Society is trying to replace religious values with secular ones. I don't know how that will work or if it will improve or hurt our country in the long run.
Of course we are. The Bible advocates Mass Murder, Rape, Submission of Women, Inequality, Human Slavery, etc. It is dogmatic, which is an authoritative doctrine that is NOT supposed to be questioned. This needs to stay as far from power as possible. People not being able to question things is not a free society.
It is not a coincidence that there is correlation between lack of religiosity in countries and : higher IQ, less violent crime, lower teen pregnancy rate, equality, etc.
Of course we are. The Bible advocates Mass Murder, Rape, Submission of Women, Inequality, Human Slavery, etc.
No it doesn't.
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I don't think that religion makes a person bad. Rather I think that everyone in our country is exposed to religion and religious values. Even an evil person has heard of the ten comandments. 
