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Now that I think about it, Cobb is already with MARTA. It's in the charter, but it doesn't have transit because they didn't accept the tax. Maybe if MARTA can find another source of funding, it can expand to Cobb without their consent.
Nope, Cobb voters rejected the creation of MARTA in 1965. You're thinking of Gwinnett and Clayton (pre-2014) which approved MARTA but not the implementation of the tax in 1971.
That's not the point. I know people don't want to hear it, but for me it's about paying that money and getting very little of value for it.
I've voted for both SPLOSTs here in Cobb to add 2% to every purchase because I see the value first hand. I see the new schools and the additions to existing schools. I see the new sidewalks going up along roads all over Cobb. I see the parks and other places that SPLOST impacts.
If Cobb were to opt in to MARTA tomorrow, I would see CCT buses I don't ride replaced by MARTA buses I won't ride. Maybe in 10 or 15 years there'd be a rail line of some kind several miles away, and if I need to go downtown or to the airport, I could drive to the train station, park, get out and pay to ride for 30-45 mi , instead of just riding all the way in my car for 45-60 min.
As I've posted many times...give me transit that makes sense for Cobb and for me, and I'll support it. What you've seen is I'm not alone in my beliefs or some whacko outlier. My views are the mainstream in Cobb.
So the real question is:
Why do people on C-D keep asking when is Cobb going to join MARTA, and why are they so shocked and confused by the responses they get?
So what you're saying is, whether you'd support a Cobb MARTA expansion very much depends on what the future network would look like?
Alright, that's an acceptable starting point to me.
I know that Cobb has been entertaining the prospect of mass transit down 41 for awhile. First it was light rail, which I'm actually glad they nixed, and now they're thinking BRT. I used to be cool to the idea of BRT, but as of late I've been willing to give it a second chance. A major advantage it has over light rail is that should the line be taken down someday, the capital losses would be far less than for an abandoned rail line. This is important when one considers that MARTA, or whatever the agency morphs into in the years to come, may well expand into Cobb someday in the future. But now we're back to the question of where.
I could see heavy rail running up the CSX corridor up to Cumberland, and then commuter rail from there. Hell if they did that, the BRT could wind up being a permanent solution. Plus, there's another freight rail line that runs roughly east-to-west through south Cobb, and I guarantee you that line would get a good share of riders. Then it simply becomes a matter of connecting the bus lines to cover the rest of the territory--lines that can easily be redrawn if they don't work right away.
Or, if I misjudged your response, and you're pretty much a firm No--well, Clayton's expanding now, and I'll guarantee you that Gwinnett will opt in by the year 2030. It will be Cobb's move from there.
So what you're saying is, whether you'd support a Cobb MARTA expansion very much depends on what the future network would look like?
Alright, that's an acceptable starting point to me.
I know that Cobb has been entertaining the prospect of mass transit down 41 for awhile. First it was light rail, which I'm actually glad they nixed, and now they're thinking BRT.
Before the light rail proposal, there was also a failed proposal back in the 1990's to build a monorail on US 41 Cobb Parkway by former Cobb Commission Chairman Bill Byrne (...Bill Byrne of early '90's Olympic event-costing anti-gay resolution infamy).
Like the current BRT proposal, the previous BRT proposal and the LRT proposal before that, the problem with the US 41 monorail proposal of the '90's was that it was entirely too heavily dependent upon the federal government to fund the project....To the tune of needing the Feds to fund 80% of the cost of the monorail project.
[quote=toll_booth;37717430]I used to be cool to the idea of BRT, but as of late I've been willing to give it a second chance. A major advantage it has over light rail is that should the line be taken down someday, the capital losses would be far less than for an abandoned rail line. This is important when one considers that MARTA, or whatever the agency morphs into in the years to come, may well expand into Cobb someday in the future. But now we're back to the question of where.
I could see heavy rail running up the CSX corridor up to Cumberland, and then commuter rail from there. Hell if they did that, the BRT could wind up being a permanent solution. Plus, there's another freight rail line that runs roughly east-to-west through south Cobb, and I guarantee you that line would get a good share of riders. Then it simply becomes a matter of connecting the bus lines to cover the rest of the territory--lines that can easily be redrawn if they don't work right away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth
So what you're saying is, whether you'd support a Cobb MARTA expansion very much depends on what the future network would look like?
Alright, that's an acceptable starting point to me.
I know that Cobb has been entertaining the prospect of mass transit down 41 for awhile. First it was light rail, which I'm actually glad they nixed, and now they're thinking BRT.
Before the light rail proposal, there was also a failed proposal back in the 1990's to build a monorail on US 41 Cobb Parkway by former Cobb Commission Chairman Bill Byrne (...Bill Byrne of early '90's Olympic event-costing anti-gay resolution infamy).
Like the current BRT proposal, the previous BRT proposal and the LRT proposal before that, the problem with the US 41 monorail proposal of the '90's was that it was entirely too heavily dependent upon the federal government to fund the project....To the tune of needing the Feds to fund 80% of the cost of the monorail project.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth
I used to be cool to the idea of BRT, but as of late I've been willing to give it a second chance. A major advantage it has over light rail is that should the line be taken down someday, the capital losses would be far less than for an abandoned rail line. This is important when one considers that MARTA, or whatever the agency morphs into in the years to come, may well expand into Cobb someday in the future. But now we're back to the question of where.
I like BRT (and higher-capacity bus service in general) because BRT and BRT-level bus service can be used to shuttle people either until rail transit service can be implemented in a high-capacity corridor or if rail transit is never implemented in a high-capacity corridor.
BRT and higher-capacity bus service is important because it gives the public an alternative transportation option in areas where rail transit either cannot be built for many years or where rail transit may never be built.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth
I could see heavy rail running up the CSX corridor up to Cumberland, and then commuter rail from there. Hell if they did that, the BRT could wind up being a permanent solution. Plus, there's another freight rail line that runs roughly east-to-west through south Cobb, and I guarantee you that line would get a good share of riders. Then it simply becomes a matter of connecting the bus lines to cover the rest of the territory--lines that can easily be redrawn if they don't work right away.
I think that there's a good chance that there potentially could eventually be as many as 4 high-capacity rail transit lines operating along and through the I-75/I-575/US 41/CSX-W&A Northwest Corridor because of the increasing demand for it from the Cobb County and Northwest Metro Atlanta real estate market and because of the inability to significantly further expand the road network in an area where the population continues to grow despite the lack of an arterial road infrastructure to adequately support it.
The 4 high-capacity rail transit lines that potentially could conceivably one day operate in the I-75/I-575/US 41/CSX-W&A Northwest Corridor:
> A high-capacity passenger rail transit line along the aforementioned CSX/W&A ROW and corridor with regional HRT service operating between the ATL Airport and Acworth and regional higher-speed commuter rail service operating between the ATL Airport and Chattanooga...
> A high-capacity passenger rail transit line along the CSX/W&A ROW up to Marietta and roughly along the GNRR (Georgia Northeastern Railroad) ROW up to the North Georgia Mountains with regional HRT service operating between the ATL Airport and Downtown Canton and regional commuter rail service operating between the ATL Airport and the town of Blue Ridge in the North Georgia Mountains...
> A high-capacity passenger rail transit line along the US 41 Cobb Parkway corridor with regional HRT service between the ATL Airport and Acworth...
> A high-capacity passenger rail transit line along the CSX/W&A ROW with regional HRT service between Acworth and Buford and commuter rail service between Cartersville and Gainesville.
I also agree that high-capacity rail transit service in South Cobb would be heavily utilized by the public.
But with the exceptionally heavy amount of freight rail traffic that utilizes those existing freight rail tracks in South Cobb (particularly the section of NS freight rail trackage that runs between Austell and Howell Junction which is one of the busiest sections of freight rail track in the entire Western Hemisphere because of the presence of the Whitaker Intermodal Yard in Austell which is said to be the busiest single intermodal yard in North America east of the Mississippi River), I think that there is a good chance any future passenger rail transit service operations through South Cobb will be on dedicated passenger rail transit tracks.
With the extremely heavy peak-hour traffic on major highways like I-20 West and US 278/GA 6 West and with the desire of Paulding County officials to ramp up economic development within the county, I think that there is a good chance that the future passenger rail transit lines in and through South Cobb County will carry regional HRT lines on them in addition to some kind of regional commuter rail/express rail service.
I think that there's a good chance that MARTA HRT service will eventually be extended west from the Hamilton E. Holmes MARTA Station west along the GA 139 ROW to Mableton then west along the US 78/278 corridor to Austell where regional HRT service will continue on west to Dallas and Douglasville and regional commuter rail service will eventually continue on to Rome and Tallapoosa (and maybe eventually as far west as Anniston, AL).
Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth
Or, if I misjudged your response, and you're pretty much a firm No--well, Clayton's expanding now, and I'll guarantee you that Gwinnett will opt in by the year 2030. It will be Cobb's move from there.
With some of the talk that has swirling around in state government and in some powerful business and real estate circles on Metro Atlanta's politically dominant Northside, many onlookers are starting to get a feeling that the powers-that-be may not be willing to wait the many years it might take until the currently transit averse electorates in Cobb and Gwinnett change to become more favorable to the idea of voting to increase sales taxes to fund rail transit expansion into those increasingly heavily populated OTP counties.
With talk coming from Lt. Governor Casey Cagle (the overwhelming early-on favorite in the 2018 Georgia Governor's race) that the state is interested in changing the revenue and operating structure of MARTA in the same way that the revenue and operating structure of Grady Memorial Hospital was changed a few years ago....And with many in the business and real estate community pushing the state to takeover and privatize MARTA just before Keith Parker took over as CEO of MARTA....There appears to be some indicators that the powers-that-be (state government at the behest of Metro Atlanta's powerful business and real estate communities) may find some way to push to expand rail transit service into Cobb and Gwinnett counties without the use of highly contentious voter referendums to approve sales tax increases for MARTA membership and expansion.
I like BRT (and higher-capacity bus service in general) because BRT and BRT-level bus service can be used to shuttle people either until rail transit service can be implemented in a high-capacity corridor or if rail transit is never implemented in a high-capacity corridor.
Good points, B2R.
BRT can be used to establish and evaluate ridership patterns without the gargantuan expense of rail lines.
Its inconceivable to me they could put Cobb or Gwinnett in a MARTA replacement without a sales tax vote.
I could see them offering a new setup where new MARTA wouldn't be dominated by the city of Atlanta and would get some state support and give them a chance to vote on it. But I don't see any way around a vote to combine the operations. They've talked about GRTA, but that would be a very loose association.
BRT can be used to establish and evaluate ridership patterns without the gargantuan expense of rail lines.
Much more flexibility and similar service for a much lower price. It could even be better service as they could use HOT/HOV lanes to go beyond the service area w/o transfers. Light rail can't do that.
As part of its (largely unfunded) proposal to expand the Top End of the I-285 Perimeter (Revive 285), the state has proposed the construction of a high-capacity transit line that runs roughly parallel to the I-285 Top End Perimeter between Cumberland and Doraville. The proposed high-capacity transit line would connect to the existing MARTA Heavy Rail Transit system at the Medical Center, Dunwoody and Doraville MARTA stations.
Though Cobb County business and real estate interests want some kind of eventual rail transit connection to the extremely lucrative convention and tourism business in Downtown Atlanta and the world's busiest airport at Hartsfield-Jackson.
Cobb County business and real estate interests want a future rail transit connection to Central Atlanta and the airport either by way of the Marietta Boulevard corridor and/or the I-75 Northwest corridor through Northwest Atlanta.
My thing is why aren't these business leader putting their money where their mouth is. Even if MARTA HRT only extended to Cumberland and used BRT for Cobb Pkwy/I-75 and I-575. Cumberland is dense enough to support HRT service. With Clayton now in the mix as a full MARTA partner a new line from Cumberland to Southlake Mall could easily be created.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll
Though, from what I understand, the MARTA Heavy Rail Transit system was intended at its inception to function in large part as a commuter rail network for the Atlanta region in a way that was similar to how Northern California's BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) regional HRT system functions as a commuter rail system for many parts of the Bay Area.
I agree with this. It's unfortunate that the 'burbs have blocked this process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth
Or, if I misjudged your response, and you're pretty much a firm No--well, Clayton's expanding now, and I'll guarantee you that Gwinnett will opt in by the year 2030. It will be Cobb's move from there.
I'm thinking even sooner. If MARTA is a success in Clayton I could see them seriously voting for this in the early 2020s (like 2022). They are already about 50/50 in Gwinnett.
BRT can be used to establish and evaluate ridership patterns without the gargantuan expense of rail lines.
Yes, indeed, arjay.
With and/or without rail transit service, bus service is still vitally and critically important to the functionality of the multimodal transportation network of a very large major metro region like Atlanta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
Its inconceivable to me they could put Cobb or Gwinnett in a MARTA replacement without a sales tax vote.
I could see them offering a new setup where new MARTA wouldn't be dominated by the city of Atlanta and would get some state support and give them a chance to vote on it. But I don't see any way around a vote to combine the operations.
The powers-that-be learned a lot of lessons from the failure of the 2012 T-SPLOST, including the lesson that any major regional transportation referendum or even a major local transportation referendum (like a sales tax referendum for MARTA expansion into Cobb and/or Gwinnett counties) that has regional implications will early-on attract a very large and loud contingent of anti-tax, anti-transit and anti-tax/anti-transit voters that will be extremely difficult to overcome.
The powers-that-be also learned that putting critically important transportation funding initiatives up for a vote gives the public the impression that such critically important transportation funding initiatives are optional when they often may be very necessary.
The public may have voted down the 2012 T-SPLOST and the important transportation projects it funded, but the pressing need for those important transportation projects did not go away with the public's rejection of the T-SPLOST.
The need for those important transportation projects (like rail transit expansion to Emory, rail transit expansion to Gwinnett, high-capacity transit expansion to Cobb, reconstruction of busy freeway interchanges around I-285, etc) still persists despite the lack of a way to pay for them.
Which is why the powers-that-be are looking at ways to expand rail transit service outside of Fulton and DeKalb counties that would not require county-by-county votes for sales tax increases that would be dominated by anti-tax and anti-transit interests.
Like has been discussed before, one of the major ways that they are looking at expanding high-capacity transit outside of Fulton and DeKalb counties that would not require a voter referendum in each of the counties that high-capacity transit is proposed to be expanded into is use an Asian transit funding model which funds transit service with revenues from transit-oriented development (TOD) real estate development along transit lines.
Another way that they are looking at funding transit expansion without county-by-county voter referendums is to ask the business community to donate revenues to fund transit projects....Like is being done with the I-285/GA 400 interchange reconstruction where the businesses of the Perimeter Community Improvement District (the Perimeter CID) are funding part of the cost of the project.
(...In a similar fashion, part of the cost of the new Braves stadium in Cobb County is also being funded with donations from Cumberland area businesses through the Cumberland CID....Businesses will help fund projects of a major regional impact if they think that those projects will benefit their bottom line.)
Yet another way that the powers-that-be are thinking of funding transit expansions that are increasingly necessary in a 21st Century real estate marketplace that values direct access to robust transit in very large major metro areas is for businesses to voluntarily levy some kind of regional transit tax on themselves through a regional business body like the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce or the Georgia Chamber of Commerce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
They've talked about GRTA, but that would be a very loose association.
From what I understand, it has been said that GRTA (which was created by Governor Roy Barnes in the late 1990's) was created by the state with the intention of eventually folding MARTA operations into GRTA so that rail and bus transit could eventually be expanded far beyond the current limited two-county service area of MARTA.
The Northside business and real estate interests in Cobb, North Fulton and Gwinnett counties really desperately want the future direct rail transit links to the lucrative convention and tourism business in Downtown Atlanta and the world's busiest airport at Hartsfield-Jackson....Which is why they are willing to do whatever it takes to extend rail transit lines out from Atlanta into their areas.
(....The direct rail transit links to the Downtown Atlanta convention and tourism business and the world's busiest airport at Hartsfield-Jackson are what have made the commercial real estate so much more valuable in areas like Midtown, Buckhead and Perimeter in recent years.)
If the state wants it, I could see them putting just the Cumberland Galleria business district in MARTA. They want it. MARTA would want it. The question is how much Cobb County would fight it.
My thing is why aren't these business leader putting their money where their mouth is.
This is an excellent question.
There are indications that the business community may be willing to pay for transit improvements either through local CIDs (Community Improvement Districts) like those in Cumberland (where the Cumberland CID is paying part of the cost of the new Braves stadium), Perimeter (where the Perimeter CID is paying part of the cost of the reconstruction of the I-285/GA 400 interchange), Gwinnett (where the Gwinnett Village CID pays part of the cost of transportation projects) or through the regional and/or state chamber of commerce bodies (like the Metro Atlanta C of C or the Georgia C of C).
There's also much speculation that the Metro Atlanta business and real estate community (particularly business and real estate interests on the Northside) are pushing state government to take political control of MARTA and privatize it so that an expanded regional transit system could be funded without highly contentious voter referendums to raise sales taxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfarley30
Even if MARTA HRT only extended to Cumberland and used BRT for Cobb Pkwy/I-75 and I-575. Cumberland is dense enough to support HRT service. With Clayton now in the mix as a full MARTA partner a new line from Cumberland to Southlake Mall could easily be created.
These are some excellent points and the implementation of a high-capacity rail transit line that follows I-75 between South Metro points like Southlake Mall and North Metro points like Cumberland is an excellent idea.
The idea of implementing high-capacity passenger rail transit service between two points like Southlake Mall and Cumberland also reflects the need for a very large metro region like Atlanta and a state like Georgia to change the way that we view passenger rail transit.
Instead of viewing passenger rail transit as a mode of transportation that competes with roads for users (a view that has come about largely because we have been funding high-capacity transportation modes incorrectly with non inflation-indexed sales taxes on motor fuels and retail items for much of the last 60 years), we need (desperately need) to view passenger rail as road with rails....Which is what rail transit really is, a road with rails, hence the name "rail-ROAD".
When we can no longer expand a high-capacity roadway with new lanes because of physical and political limitations, we can still expand the capacity of a transportation corridor with transit either by adding trains to a nearby or parallel high-capacity passenger rail line or by adding bus service to toll lanes and nearby and parallel surface roads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfarley30
I agree with this. It's unfortunate that the 'burbs have blocked this process.
The suburbs and exurbs only blocked the process because the process was put together in such a flawed way that it could be blocked with the MARTA system being entirely too overdependent on only one revenue stream (a 1% sales tax) and any potential expansions of the MARTA system needing to be approved over the loud objections of highly tax-averse (and highly transit-averse) voters.
Hindsight is 20-20, but looking back, the legislative process from which MARTA was created could have been much more robust as MARTA should have been created to collect most of its revenue from Transit-Oriented Development (TOD) along transit lines, the private sector (donations, sponsorships, sales of shares, etc) and a distance-based fare structure instead of the agency being created to nearly financially starve to death by being created to be dependent solely upon the restricted revenues of a voter-approved 1% sales tax, a non inflation-indexed flat-rate fare structure and federal funding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfarley30
I'm thinking even sooner. If MARTA is a success in Clayton I could see them seriously voting for this in the early 2020s (like 2022). They are already about 50/50 in Gwinnett.
With the 21st Century business and real estate marketplace continuing to evolve so rapidly in its emphasis on the importance of transit access in large major metro areas like Atlanta, there are some indications that the powers-that-be may attempt to go about expanding the transit network without voter referendums in outlying counties like Cobb and Gwinnett.
That's because even though the populations in outlying counties like Cobb and Gwinnett have become much more diverse in recent years, the electorates of those counties have not yet changed to reflect that increased diversity and continue to be dominated by many of the same staunchly anti-tax and anti-transit factions that they were dominated by 20+ years ago.
Plus, Cobb and Gwinnett counties are not the only outlying areas where high-capacity transit service is needed as there continues to be a growing need for improved transit service for both economical and logistical reasons in outlying counties like Cherokee, Forsyth, Paulding, Douglas, Hall, Henry, Coweta, Rockdale, Newton, etc....At this point, putting future transit expansion up for a vote in front of suburban and exurban electorates dominated by anti-tax and anti-transit political interests is just not practical or wise, particularly when the 21st Century international business marketplace and economy demands that international city/metros like Atlanta have extensive access to transportation alternatives to the automobile on an underfunded and politically restricted road network.
The spectacular failure of the 2012 T-SPLOST voter referendum exposed the extreme flaws and vulnerabilities of the voter referendum approach to funding regional transportation needs....Which is why state and regional business and political leaders are seriously looking at other options to fund regional transportation needs.
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