Novare Looks to Build 23-Story Mixed-Use Project on 6th (Atlanta: apartment, renter)

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by MDAllstar

Sounds good to me! There is nothing wrong with being different. I don't see why the select few who are greatly outnumbered complain about everything. Atlanta does not have to be a major dense city. Some people like space and as you said cars. There is nothing wrong with that. There are so many people that want Atlanta to be something its not like there is something wrong with the way it is. Atlanta was not designed to be dense and compact. Its ok to be different. People should stop trying to impose their former home on Atlanta. People take offense to people saying Atlanta isn't urban like being urban makes a city better than another. I don't understand why people can't be proud to not be densely built having people living on top of each other. There is a place for density and there is a place for a relaxed lower density life. Some people can't accept what Atlanta is for some reason though. I chime in for consultation but I by no means think Atlanta needs to be like NYC, DC, or Chicago etc. Atlanta is fine the way it is.

more density doesn't necessarily mean a rushed lifestyle... in many ways density means a less-rushed lifestyle. it means you can walk to the grocery store, walk to school, walk to work, walk to a movie theatre, etc., getting out and enjoying the beautiful trees atlanta has, etc.

there's nothing wrong with the historic neighbourhoods outside the urban core, in fact the proximity to parks and historic homes from the middle of the city makes atlanta something really unique. the problem is that the urban center, downtown and midtown, is not really dense enough to provide that "walkable" environment so many desire. there's parking lots and decks everywhere, and it is frustrating and less "relaxed" to have bumper-to-bumper cars and parking decks creating the scenery rather than fellow human beings walking down the road, shops and restaurants and park space.

it's not about making atlanta like NYC, DC, Chicago. it's about getting rid of dead space and making the city more enjoyable and safe. walk though downtown or midtown and look at all the empty parking lots, lots growing up in weeds, etc. now imagine those lots being used for beautiful architecture, park space, art exhibits, etc. this is the thing most people are going for, it's not about making people have less space, it's about getting people together to enjoy their community.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by MDAllstar

People take offense to people saying Atlanta isn't urban like being urban makes a city better than another.

I don't offense in the least although what you mean by "urban" is rather fuzzy.

[Mishap]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

more density doesn't necessarily mean a rushed lifestyle... in many ways density means a less-rushed lifestyle. it means you can walk to the grocery store, walk to school, walk to work, walk to a movie theatre, etc., getting out and enjoying the beautiful trees atlanta has, etc.

there's nothing wrong with the historic neighbourhoods outside the urban core, in fact the proximity to parks and historic homes from the middle of the city makes atlanta something really unique. the problem is that the urban center, downtown and midtown, is not really dense enough to provide that "walkable" environment so many desire. there's parking lots and decks everywhere, and it is frustrating and less "relaxed" to have bumper-to-bumper cars and parking decks creating the scenery rather than fellow human beings walking down the road, shops and restaurants and park space.

it's not about making atlanta like NYC, DC, Chicago. it's about getting rid of dead space and making the city more enjoyable and safe. walk though downtown or midtown and look at all the empty parking lots, lots growing up in weeds, etc. now imagine those lots being used for beautiful architecture, park space, art exhibits, etc. this is the thing most people are going for, it's not about making people have less space, it's about getting people together to enjoy their community.

You have a chicken/egg problem in midtown. In order to lure enough businesses in town, you need to have enough residents. To get those residents to move in, you have to provide enough parking to assuage fears they won't be able to get what you need b/c there aren't enough businesses. I've lived in midtown for 4 yrs now (1yr at Spire/3 at Viewpoint) and love how it's simplified my life from living in the burbs. I haven't gotten rid of the 2nd car yet but I honestly don't drive it that much (~4k/yr). When my current car(manual) is due for replacement, I'll probably convince my g/f a single car makes more sense.

I'm kind of glad to see they're finally starting development since hopefully that will help bring the area to that critical mass that does mean fewer people need cars. A deck certainly isn't the prettiest thing to see but I walk that dilapidated wall daily and the old Loca Luna almost as often and a bit of retail interspersed along there (w/ cheap enough rents) would be a good thing. I think Novare has some unrealistic rent expectations for their buildings (plus a crappy sales team) that can't figure out good tenants for the buildings which certainly has hurt them.

The other problem I see is the 1 way st situation on 7th and 6th streets kills retail. There's no clear deck access unless you go all the way to 8th st and that's simply nightmarish for non-residents. You'll never attract destination tenants if people can't stop to shop. Either 2 way 7th St and put a parking entrance there or find a way to put a ramp directly on Peachtree. Pipe dream but watching people fight in front of SBX for spots says the demand is there for shops...they just need to be able to tap into it.

[cqholt]

Midtown NPU can ask for first-level retail when it comes to the NPU.

[lastminutemom]

I don't know if anyone can comment on this, but it is my understanding that "first level retail" is struggling in lots of places. I suspect, as others have discussed, this may be because of poor management/unrealistic rents, but I am also hearing that it is really hard for new businesses to borrow money to start up. (I am not talking about chains or new locations for existing businesses, but rather truly new businesses.)

Comments?

[Mishap]

Originally Posted by lastminutemom

I don't know if anyone can comment on this, but it is my understanding that "first level retail" is struggling in lots of places. I suspect, as others have discussed, this may be because of poor management/unrealistic rents, but I am also hearing that it is really hard for new businesses to borrow money to start up. (I am not talking about chains or new locations for existing businesses, but rather truly new businesses.)

Comments?

It can definitely be the case but many franchisees have unrealistic expectations and shaky finances which doesn't help the case. Back in '08 when I lived in Spire, the concierge mentioned the rent for Fresh2Order was $11,000/mon which would be absolutely ridiculous for most restaurants to survive. I don't know if they've come down to more reasonable rates but my parents owned restaurants for ~20 yrs and would never try to make a business model out of rent like that.

My parents made several businesses thrive w/o ever signing an SBA loan and businesses that have merit will continue to find a way. Those that need loans just to setup shop are definitely starting off in a tough spot. What bank would rationally lend money to a small business w/o a serious capital outlay from the owner? Things like inventory for restaurants are highly perishable...boutique clothing virtually impossible to liquidate, and the chains capable of actually paying these kinds of rents would rather go w/ a known quantity in retail space (think Selig at 1010) vs. Novare which is much more residential oriented.

[MDAllstar]

Originally Posted by lastminutemom

I don't know if anyone can comment on this, but it is my understanding that "first level retail" is struggling in lots of places. I suspect, as others have discussed, this may be because of poor management/unrealistic rents, but I am also hearing that it is really hard for new businesses to borrow money to start up. (I am not talking about chains or new locations for existing businesses, but rather truly new businesses.)

Comments?

First floor retail is only struggling in places without extensive foot traffic and pedestrian traffic. Car oriented area's with first floor retail are basically doomed to fail. One of the strengths to density, urban form, and transit/pedestrian oriented development is it's the only way first floor retail will work. It's designed to put as many people on the streets as possible. It's also designed to have as many people living in plain sight of the stores making it convenient for the community. Density is king when it comes to retail. This is the tug a war people face in their community around the country when they want nice retail amenities but don't want density.


Here is the formula:

Car Free Dense Urban Built Neighborhoods = High Population Density = High Foot Traffic = Possible High Sales Volume = Ability to Pay High Rents

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by MDAllstar

Here is the formula:

Car Free Dense Urban Built Neighborhoods = High Population Density = High Foot Traffic = Possible High Sales Volume = Ability to Pay High Rents

In my opinion part of the tension here is that so many of the big employment centers are away from the city limits. So you don't have that great a centripetal force of people being drawn to intown living by work. For a lot of folks it's still a choice rather than a necessity.

[nrgpill]

I fully expect the parking deck to be pretty much the centerpiece of the development because I see the urban core being redeveloped a few more times before we reach the desired level of density + high $$/sq ft required in order to develop like other cities. Realistically, as arjay has pointed out, there is still a wide range of choices in this town and the demand (economically) just isn't there for a more elegant solution. Add to that the many employment centers we have in this town. Vertical development will take some time gaining traction here. I would personally like to see the "condo crash" cleaned up w/ respectable occupancy rate before seeing more developments.

[Mishap]

Originally Posted by nrgpill

I fully expect the parking deck to be pretty much the centerpiece of the development because I see the urban core being redeveloped a few more times before we reach the desired level of density + high $$/sq ft required in order to develop like other cities. Realistically, as arjay has pointed out, there is still a wide range of choices in this town and the demand (economically) just isn't there for a more elegant solution. Add to that the many employment centers we have in this town. Vertical development will take some time gaining traction here. I would personally like to see the "condo crash" cleaned up w/ respectable occupancy rate before seeing more developments.

Viewpoint1 is sold out and they're claiming Twelve Centennial has only 20 units left if you happen upon their site. Definitely still plenty of volatility in the condo market for buildings that sold during the boom but I've gotten some sales reports for Viewpoint showing resale units going for respectable prices indicating some stability. Many of the other buildings are filling in although Atlantic Station is clearly still a mess.

Given we have no geographic barriers to outward expansion (other than the sheer nightmare of commuting from say Suwanee to ATL), I think our urban core will still be somewhat car oriented although the density will allow more people to eschew cars if they choose vs by sheer economic cost (200k parking spots in NYC). There's nothing keeping people from leasing their extra parking to others (other than some people demanding $100/mon).