One year after TSPLOST's defeat (Atlanta: how much, construction, utilities)

[tikigod311]

Originally Posted by MattCW

Glad to see these boondoggles being dropped. Doesn't mean they won't happen, but the chances are going down.

I'm glad too. I can't remember if it was the plan 2040 or something else, but it was state that no further HOV lanes will be converted to hotlanes. It was explicit. Thank God.

Here's hoping we figure out our Plan B before Atlanta finalizes its descent into obsolescence.

Still not too upset TSPLOST failed. The project list sucked, still does, and it wouldn't have done much for the amount of money being raised. The danger in this is that it would cause reluctance for additional funding for things that would be a much better investment.

I wish the politicians weren't scared to propose a new tax or source of revenue. The failure of the T-SPLOST wasn't an outright objection to using tax money for infrastructure improvement.

Agree 100% P3s are the way to go. Ill have fond memories of Reed if he get this going.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by jsvh

I am still glad it failed. Transportation should be paid by users.

And taxation is the only way to ensure it's paid by all users.

This TSPLOST would have only continued to give people discounts for moving farther away that has lead to so much sprawl in the Atlanta metro.

This wasn't going to create a 20 minute rail line to Augusta so I fail to see how it gives people "discounts" for moving further away.

PPP's should be plan 'B'

PPPs aren't a magic solution, and don't work everywhere. They should be considered, but not exclusive relied on. Even so, PPPs could just be the government contracting with someone like CW Matthews to build the footers for a bridge, the term is enormously broad and needs some definition.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by MattCW

And taxation is the only way to ensure it's paid by all users.

What about the user that is driving straight through the metro area? That don't pay a dime in tsplost.

Originally Posted by MattCW

This wasn't going to create a 20 minute rail line to Augusta so I fail to see how it gives people "discounts" for moving further away.

Free 10 lane highway to your cheaper house 45 miles away or pay $100 a month more to live closer? Most will (and have) chosen to take the subsidized highway even though the cost to society is much more than $100 a month they would have spent to live closer.

Originally Posted by MattCW

PPPs aren't a magic solution, and don't work everywhere. They should be considered, but not exclusive relied on. Even so, PPPs could just be the government contracting with someone like CW Matthews to build the footers for a bridge, the term is enormously broad and needs some definition.

Right. We want to get to where we have private companies are building and operating the transportation like how the NYC subway got built out.

[cqholt]

Here's hoping we figure out our Plan B before Atlanta finalizes its descent into obsolescence

City of Atlanta is developing its own transportation improvements paid with bonds. Key projects are streetcars on the BeltLine within 5 years and sidewalk improvements.

[kferq]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Right. We want to get to where we have private companies are building and operating the transportation like how the NYC subway got built out.

In every thread I hear the same ideology, but no practical plans. The key point is that there is no practical plan B. Don't get me wrong I love a PPP as much as the next person, but I have yet to see a concrete (the pun is intentional) plan to make it happen on a wide enough scale to address our infrastructure issues.

How do we get to this nirvana of private companies building our infrastructure ? You clearly believe that this could be profitable because it was in the 1880's, but concrete plans? If the companies don't own development rights the to the land the way they did in the NYC in the 1880s, how will they make money? Pie in the sky promises with no reality do not stop economic stagnation.

The reality is MARTA selling TOD rights near its stations. Sales tax making Marta possible, but the TOD income helps at the margins. It helps, but it is not the answer. Reality is PPP on the Beltline for transit. It is a great idea, but the TAD makes it happen.

You can be happy that TSPLOST failed, but there is no basis in reality that any solutions mentioned in this thread will significantly affect our economic future anytime soon!

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by kferq

Add five more months and another legislative session and:

Metro Atlanta still lacks ‘Plan B’ as other cities invest in transportation | SaportaReport

There is still no plan B.

How do Dallas and Denver get all that money for transportation? Do they pay higher taxes or are their governments just lean, mean machines?

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by kferq

Add five more months and another legislative session and:

Metro Atlanta still lacks ‘Plan B’ as other cities invest in transportation | SaportaReport

There is still no plan B.

Love that article because it highlights what I just said in that other thread about this anti-transit mentality here.

Other cities are investing heavily into transit. We just have a 2.7 mile streetcar that goes almost nowhere.

[Mossberg]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but...

PPPs are no magic solution and can many times harm proper growth and development in cities if the contracts (which are usually long term) are not structured properly. Most private entities will not invest in infrastructure without securing revenue for the length of the contract through non-compete agreements.

Most firms will want a guarantee that if they fund a toll road project, the government cannot upgrade parallel thoroughfares capacity without being in breach of contract.

For instance: The I-75/575 HOT lane project ran into this issue initially when they attempted to use the PPP method, but I believe most of the interested firms wanted to restrict the government from upgrading US-41 Cobb Pkwy during the life of the contract. I also believe that firms also requested that there be no significant upgrades to transit.

Something like that can cripple a region if growth explodes unexpectedly with no real solution available due to the constraints of a contract.

Remember, these are "FOR PROFIT" entities. They don't necessarily care about making the region function better. They only care about profit.

So, please keep all of this in mind before automatically stating that PPP is the solution to our funding problems for projects. It's never that simple.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Love that article because it highlights what I just said in that other thread about this anti-transit mentality here.

Other cities are investing heavily into transit. We just have a 2.7 mile streetcar that goes almost nowhere.

Streetcar passes by major tourist attractions, peachtree center business district, 30K university, one of the largest hospitals in america, and a corridor that's seeing an increase in restaurants and bars.

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by kferq

In every thread I hear the same ideology, but no practical plans. The key point is that there is no practical plan B. Don't get me wrong I love a PPP as much as the next person, but I have yet to see a concrete (the pun is intentional) plan to make it happen on a wide enough scale to address our infrastructure issues.

How do we get to this nirvana of private companies building our infrastructure ? You clearly believe that this could be profitable because it was in the 1880's, but concrete plans? If the companies don't own development rights the to the land the way they did in the NYC in the 1880s, how will they make money? Pie in the sky promises with no reality do not stop economic stagnation.

The reality is MARTA selling TOD rights near its stations. Sales tax making Marta possible, but the TOD income helps at the margins. It helps, but it is not the answer. Reality is PPP on the Beltline for transit. It is a great idea, but the TAD makes it happen.

You can be happy that TSPLOST failed, but there is no basis in reality that any solutions mentioned in this thread will significantly affect our economic future anytime soon!

You make a really good point here as selling-out and/or leasing-out Transit-Oriented Development rights at and around transit stations along with Tax Allocation Districts, Tax Incremental Financing (portions of property tax revenues from new development that pops up along transit lines), and revenues from inflation-indexed distance-based user fees (distance-based fares on transit lines and distance-based tolls on roads) is actually key to getting our infrastructure built-out more effectively with private capital which is already being used to build public transportation infrastructure in an increasingly less-effective way when government bonds are borrowed from and sold to private investors to pay for public infrastructure projects.

Public-Private Partnerships are just a much more-effective way of using the private capital that already is and already has to be used to pay for public infrastructure projects as the direct profits from real estate holdings adjacent to transit lines and the direct profits from distance-based user fees on transit lines and roads that private investors control in PPPs is incentive for private investors to build-out public infrastructure.

Originally Posted by Mossberg

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but...

PPPs are no magic solution and can many times harm proper growth and development in cities if the contracts (which are usually long term) are not structured properly. Most private entities will not invest in infrastructure without securing revenue for the length of the contract through non-compete agreements.

Most firms will want a guarantee that if they fund a toll road project, the government cannot upgrade parallel thoroughfares capacity without being in breach of contract.

For instance: The I-75/575 HOT lane project ran into this issue initially when they attempted to use the PPP method, but I believe most of the interested firms wanted to restrict the government from upgrading US-41 Cobb Pkwy during the life of the contract. I also believe that firms also requested that there be no significant upgrades to transit.

Something like that can cripple a region if growth explodes unexpectedly with no real solution available due to the constraints of a contract.

Remember, these are "FOR PROFIT" entities. They don't necessarily care about making the region function better. They only care about profit.

So, please keep all of this in mind before automatically stating that PPP is the solution to our funding problems for projects. It's never that simple.

These are EXCELLENT points and great examples of why Public-Private Partnerships (PPP or P3) should be used to fund entire multimodal transportation supercorridors instead of just a couple of reversible variably-tolled lanes.

For example, instead of using a P3 just to fund the construction of I-75/I-575 reversible variably-tolled managed lanes, the best use of a P3 would be to fund the design, construction/reconstruction and continuing operations and maintenance of:

...All lanes of the I-75 and I-575 roadways...

...The entire parallel US 41 Cobb Parkway multimodal corridor (which would include grade-separated intersections at major junctions and a grade-separated high-capacity transit line)...

...A high-capacity passenger rail transit line (with local, regional and long-distance service) operating between the Atlanta Airport and Downtown Chattanooga on grade-separated passenger train-only tracks by way of the parallel (to US 41 and I-75) CSX/Western & Atlantic Railroad right-of-way...

...A high-capacity passenger rail transit line (with local, regional and long-distance service) operating between the Atlanta Airport and Asheville, North Carolina by way of the parallel (to I-575, GA 515, etc) Georgia Northeastern Railroad right-of-way...

...Connecting local and express bus lines.